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Discussion Starter #1
Hi, I have a few questions, my OH wants to get into bite work & Schutzhund training with Josefina but she is around 20 in tall & weighs about 40 lbs or so, I was wondering is there a weight limit? Or is there a breed specification on these types or sports? Is there an age limit (she's 1 1/2)?

Thanks, :).
 

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Um, to my knowledge the answer to the first two questions would be a no. There are all types of breeds that do schutzhund/protection sports etc, I believe there was a JRT that was actually pretty good at it at one point.

As for the third, I am sure there is an age limit, but I am not exactly sure what that would be, somebody with more knowledge would be able to answer that more than I could.
 

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Not sure about USA but there was no breed limitations when I did this work before. I trained 2 of my BC's in attack/protection and the one was far better at it than any GSD or Rottie. Got the crim on the ground first shot, every time - she just went in at chest height and knocked em flat.

Guys wearing the protective suits used to take bets to see who could stay standing. That paid for my training sessions.
 

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I don't think there are breed specifications, but I'm sure people will raise eyebrows when you arrive with, say, a chihuahua :p But I'm not sure whether it's the same in the US as here. I knew a guy who brought a Sarplaninac with him to train. Dog did pretty good, but was much more ferocious than the other dogs. Bit too much (went to the throat instead of arms/legs. Bet it thought: this is way more efficient. Hahaha)

Who knows, Josefina might be pretty good at it. Who knows until you try. Good luck :)
 

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Um, to my knowledge the answer to the first two questions would be a no. There are all types of breeds that do schutzhund/protection sports etc, I believe there was a JRT that was actually pretty good at it at one point.
Ah, you are thinking of Mr. Murphy and Claudia Romard. :) Enjoy!


You're right...there are a ton of other breeds out there doing Schutzhund that aren't GSD, Malinois, Dobes, or Rottweilers. Go for it...you might have a SchIII on your hands!
 

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Breed doesn't matter, size shouldn't , and her age is fine. Contact clubs in your area to decide if you want to do schutzhund or another sport, protection is very different.
Depending on the club, they will decide if the dog passes the evaluation to start training.

I have several I train in protection, but don't compete in any of the sports. Some use sleeves, some suits, and pp is not equipment focused, works on real life scenarios, but all require an immense amount of ob and control. Good luck, its pretty addictive once you get involved!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Ok I'll tell OH (she all ready has a high pray drive :) ) it would be something nice for them to do together. :)

Will update & if she gets into it ..... PICS ;).
 

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Hi Forum,
We purchased a Malanois about 4 months ago and he is a great dog, extremely smart and knows any and every command we throw at him. His personality is very humble, he is not spastic and out of control, he does have prey drive but react differently than any other dog. We hired a protection trainer to come over twice a week and train our dog to get him to where he needs to be. At first he was responding well to the training and biting the tug (the trainer said to start him in protection right away, at 3 months) The trainer comes with good recommendations for French Ring. The problem is, that for the last 3 months straight when the trainer comes over he does the same exact thing which is tie the dog to the tree and whip him for 30 mins pretty much non stop with the tail strap of the tug. At this point our dog basically runs and hides when the trainer comes in, and it is the same things every time, the trainer brings him outside and ties him to the tree. Our dog tries to get away and cowers while the trainer pokes him with the stick, whips him on the legs and snout and pops him in the nose.. I told him to whip me with the same force and it didn't really hurt that bad but our dog yelps and spins on the leash trying to get off.. We did our research on the trainer prior to bringing him in and we paid him a boatload of money for 2 times per week for 6 months of training. Everytime he comes it is the same thing.. I ask him why it is always the same thing? Our dog that used to bite the tug has now been going through this for 3 months, same thing every week now literally cowers when he comes in the door. I confronted the trainer and asked him if there were any other methods and he said that our dog has low prey drive and that he acts like a pet not a malinois, that he has to get him to react defensively to get any kind of ground with him.. Now our dog doesn't even act defensively he just burys his face as the trainer hits him with the tug, pops him in the nose and whips him with the strap.. I am all about doing what it takes to get our dog to where he needs to be.. Although i can see my dogs confidence is pretty much completely gone... The trainer has me drag our dog back in front of the tree front and center while he does this and gets almost no reaction from our dog other than yelps and our Milanois desperately tries to get to me... Can anyone help me out here, is this what the training is all about? Help me here, I don't know if I am just being soft or if something is wrong here.... Our dog is currently 4.5 months and is pretty much scared shitless of our trainer...
 

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Hi Forum,
We purchased a Malanois about 4 months ago and he is a great dog, extremely smart and knows any and every command we throw at him. His personality is very humble, he is not spastic and out of control, he does have prey drive but react differently than any other dog. We hired a protection trainer to come over twice a week and train our dog to get him to where he needs to be. At first he was responding well to the training and biting the tug (the trainer said to start him in protection right away, at 3 months) The trainer comes with good recommendations for French Ring. The problem is, that for the last 3 months straight when the trainer comes over he does the same exact thing which is tie the dog to the tree and whip him for 30 mins pretty much non stop with the tail strap of the tug. At this point our dog basically runs and hides when the trainer comes in, and it is the same things every time, the trainer brings him outside and ties him to the tree. Our dog tries to get away and cowers while the trainer pokes him with the stick, whips him on the legs and snout and pops him in the nose.. I told him to whip me with the same force and it didn't really hurt that bad but our dog yelps and spins on the leash trying to get off.. We did our research on the trainer prior to bringing him in and we paid him a boatload of money for 2 times per week for 6 months of training. Everytime he comes it is the same thing.. I ask him why it is always the same thing? Our dog that used to bite the tug has now been going through this for 3 months, same thing every week now literally cowers when he comes in the door. I confronted the trainer and asked him if there were any other methods and he said that our dog has low prey drive and that he acts like a pet not a malinois, that he has to get him to react defensively to get any kind of ground with him.. Now our dog doesn't even act defensively he just burys his face as the trainer hits him with the tug, pops him in the nose and whips him with the strap.. I am all about doing what it takes to get our dog to where he needs to be.. Although i can see my dogs confidence is pretty much completely gone... The trainer has me drag our dog back in front of the tree front and center while he does this and gets almost no reaction from our dog other than yelps and our Milanois desperately tries to get to me... Can anyone help me out here, is this what the training is all about? Help me here, I don't know if I am just being soft or if something is wrong here.... Our dog is currently 4.5 months and is pretty much scared shitless of our trainer...
Fire the trainer immediately, and you can hang up any serious protection training with this dog as he is now ruined. A four month old pup is way to young for defense training, and it should only be introduced AFTER the dog is fully mature, and solid in the rest of his training! The whole intent is to build confidence, which has now been destroyed. It's a good possibility the dog did not have the nerve for it to begin with, as even young malinois pups usually show aggression when treated this way.
 

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Agree with Juliemule. In my experience, before any protection training in Sch. is done, the dog undergoes a temprement test. If it does not have the temprement, then it can still be trained for protection but you will probably never get to competitive levels and you would need to work a lot slower.

Not sure if your dog is totally broken at this stage. Try playing with a flirt pole and see if she chases the toy. If you get that then build on it slowly until you can get a game of tug with her. If you get tug you can work on retrieves and build confidence over time.

If you are set on doing Sch. then you may still be able to build up her confidence over time but I would probably start looking for something else such as disc dog or agility or fly ball.
 

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Fire the trainer immediately, and you can hang up any serious protection training with this dog as he is now ruined. A four month old pup is way to young for defense training, and it should only be introduced AFTER the dog is fully mature, and solid in the rest of his training! The whole intent is to build confidence, which has now been destroyed. It's a good possibility the dog did not have the nerve for it to begin with, as even young malinois pups usually show aggression when treated this way.
For personal protection I did not accept dogs under 18 months of age. This man may not be the brightest bulb in this box, he in all probability has ruined a few pups/dogs and owners in his travels through the dog training world.

Also agree with the nerve statement as with a different dog the OP possibly would/could have ended up with an alligator instead of a nicely trained PP dog.
 

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Right. The only things you really do with young dogs are teach good grips, solid out, confidence, and control. With an inexperienced owner, that can be hard to accomplish sometimes. Then add in the trainer that is using this method, what's gonna happen if the dog really is confronted with someone that does inflict pain?

This is why protection gets a bad name. This should he a game, not something to be feared! Later, when the dog is ready, you begin adding threats, and with solid nerves, the confident dog welcomes the threats and will take on anything with desire, not hiding. The training described is abuse, plain and simple.

ETA: with proper training and timing, you must push a Ppd with threats. I don't view this as abuse at this stage, since the dogs enjoy it. In sports, this isn't so important as its routine, not an actual reason for the dog to really protect. This is also why many sport trained dogs really won't protect in real life. Even police k9s will run along side a criminal and not actually bite since there isn't a sleeve available. Training is imperative!
 

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Ah, you are thinking of Mr. Murphy and Claudia Romard. :) Enjoy!


You're right...there are a ton of other breeds out there doing Schutzhund that aren't GSD, Malinois, Dobes, or Rottweilers. Go for it...you might have a SchIII on your hands!
I have seen this before and was impressed immediately. What I don't understand is why people are laughing? A serious JRT is nothing to underestimate.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Also what would the price be for beginners SCH classes? I don't want to get hubby's hopes up if we won't be able to afford it :(.
 

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Usually there is a club fee, then the split for the cost of a decoy or helper. Contact your local clubs, as I have seen prices vary from $200 to several thousands.
 

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Hi i have a question for ones who are practicing or have done schutzhund,does this training make a dog more controlled or does it make them more aggressive?i ask becuse we have a very well balanced tempered 155 lb dogue de bordeaux,he does have alot of drive and when playing loves to jump up for your arm in more rowdy play,which we are careful that he doesnt get to riled up,hes a loving dog not aggressive but has prey drive rabbits, deer and is appropreatly protective.Will shutzhund awake a more acertive side or teach him control and sharpen obedience. Hes great with children so i wouldnt want the schutzhund to make him aggressive but i do think he d enjoy beong worked.ive included a photo of him he just turned 3 ,but is 20 months in photo:)
 

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Hi i have a question for ones who are practicing or have done schutzhund,does this training make a dog more controlled or does it make them more aggressive?i ask becuse we have a very well balanced tempered 155 lb dogue de bordeaux,he does have alot of drive and when playing loves to jump up for your arm in more rowdy play,which we are careful that he doesnt get to riled up,hes a loving dog not aggressive but has prey drive rabbits, deer and is appropreatly protective.Will shutzhund awake a more acertive side or teach him control and sharpen obedience. Hes great with children so i wouldnt want the schutzhund to make him aggressive but i do think he d enjoy beong worked.ive included a photo of him he just turned 3 ,but is 20 months in photo:)
If trained properly, it will not make him more aggressive. Most schutzhund dogs I have seen its just a sport, and they really don't work without equipment.
You can keep it all a game, or you can add pressure and get aggression, its all in the training. It does train great control, especially for dogs that may be a little wary of people. It gives them confidence, and teaches handling skills as well.
 

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Thanks that makes sense,thinking about involving him in something he be would do well at and aglitiy wont really be a good fit,or flyball, but hes got a great gaurdian instinct with out being aggressive so he might be a good candidate.He also loves to please and respects our authority
 
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