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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello,

This is my first post here, and I would like help finding an excellent samoyed puppy. I have been involved in conformation before, so I know how to search for a great puppy to show, but would just like some outside opinion on some kennels that I've been looking into.

Truthfully, all of the ones that I picked are excellent kennels. However, I've learned the folly of trying to show a dog that's technically with in standards, but just doesn't have what it takes to compete.

I have noticed that it's oK on this site to post kennel names, so I hope that if you all have time, that you will take a look at these kennels and let me know which you think would be the best for a show sam puppy.

I will probably also be doing some other type of event, maybe herding or agility or such.

Anyway, here are the kennels I have chosen:

www.polarmist.com
www.mysticozsamoyeds.com
www.echosamoyeds.com
www.braveheartsamoyeds.com
 

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However, I've learned the folly of trying to show a dog that's technically with in standards, but just doesn't have what it takes to compete.
I haven't looked at the websites yet, but I do have to comment on the above. Make sure you have a clear vison in your mind on the type of Sammie you're looking for, don't just fall for the flavor of the month. What wins in the ring isn't neccissarily what you want in your chosen breed. Types and styles fluxuate greatly, and often, in the show ring.
 

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I am a HUGE fan of Wolf River bloodlines in Samoyeds... they are more "old-fashioned" and not too extreme in coat or type. That said, I prefer a working type in most breeds, so if you're looking for a super showy dog, they may not be for you. I really like the dogs produced by this kennel (they use a lot of Wolf River blood) -

http://www.hawkwindsamoyeds.com/

But, out of the kennels you mentioned, I like the dogs produced by Mystic Oz the best. Not too showy, but well-balanced. I like them. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Animal Cracker- I'm not sure how to take that comment. In a way, I feel like you're already judging me with out knowing me, and also assuming my lack of education on my breed of choice. I can assure you that's not a correct assumption.

I realize how important proper structure is, especially for a working dog. I've done a bunch of research and if you took a look at the kennels I've picked, you'd see that.

I don't want dog that's going to go lame early. However, and I don't know if you show (you seem like you might) there are tiers of show dogs. Not all show dogs are created equal.

Some dogs take years to champion, usually the lesser dogs. Some dogs only take a few shows (usually the dogs you would consider specialing).

I just want an excellent dog that I won't have an impossible time showing, and getting a championship.

I don't like snipey, wolfy heads on a samoyed. That's just me. It's what I want.

I also want a moderate, well balanced dog.

To Willow- Thanks for answering the question. I was looking for honest replies. This dog will be active in dog sports, but probably not sledding sports. I still need that solid, working structure.
 

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Sammigirl, I'm sorry my comments offended you - I certainly didn't mean them that way. Definitely not judging you - just throwing in my .02 cents. Sorry that we seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot.

EDIT: Ah, I see now that this post wasn't addressed to me after all. Sorry for the confusion.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for all of the good replies. I'm going to check out those other breeders. I'm not getting the pup for over a year, but I'm heavily researching lines and structure to make sure I make a good decision.

A working dog that can't work is useless to anyone.

Again, i'm very, very grateful for the information. I'm new to the breed. I've already contacted Polar Mist and Mystic Oz over the phone and pelted them with (I'm sure) newbie annoying questions about proper angulation, old lines, etc.

I love it that so many sammies have great bone. Anyway, I digress. Guess it's just part of falling in love with a breed.
 

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Animal Cracker- I'm not sure how to take that comment. In a way, I feel like you're already judging me with out knowing me, and also assuming my lack of education on my breed of choice. I can assure you that's not a correct assumption.
I don't believe Animal Craker was judging you, but dog show politics. Dog type for the show ring can change as often as the season. There are many judges that will pass over the standard dog in preference for the flashy one. Or just prefere certain handlers to others.

Don't worry so much about finding the dog that will win. Worry more about finding the dog that embodies all of the characterists that YOU believe a Samoyed should have. That way even when you loss (which happens WAY more than winning), you will walk away from the ring still believing that your dog is beautiful and worth the effort.
 

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I don't believe Animal Craker was judging you, but dog show politics. Dog type for the show ring can change as often as the season. There are many judges that will pass over the standard dog in preference for the flashy one. Or just prefere certain handlers to others.

Don't worry so much about finding the dog that will win. Worry more about finding the dog that embodies all of the characterists that YOU believe a Samoyed should have. That way even when you loss (which happens WAY more than winning), you will walk away from the ring still believing that your dog is beautiful and worth the effort.
DM said it all better than I could have. I was not intending to judge you in any way. As DM said don't worry about finding the dog that will win. Go with the dog they you're going to be happy taking home, win or lose.

And here's my opinins on the 4 breeders you gave. Keep in mind Sammies aren't my breed so I'm not familiar with all the details.

Polar Mist- There's pages upon pages of test results for her dogs in OFA and it appears that she's starting to add them into the CHIC program. That's a huge plus in my book. She's even got testing on dogs all the way back into the late 80's. I really like the look of her females, good substance and coat without being over done, the Boys have a bit too much coat for me. All of her dogs have that adorable Sammie smile. However the girls do appear to have weak pasterns and she does have quite a few litters at the moment. That being said I would still consider getting a pup from her.

Mystic Oz- I'm not keen on her dogs at all. They have an almost Chow like quality about them. Lots of coat, especialy at the front. It looks almost as if they have loads of loose skin and wrinkles under there. If you look at the faces you'll see a defined line around the face, where it separates the short face coat from the profuse head and body coat, it gives me the impression that they might have had to pluck the face hairs for one reason or another. She does health test, but only the hips and eyes, I'd be interested to know why she doesn't do heart or PRA testing. It's probably not suprising that I would pass on this breeder. However I ceratinly wouldn't falut somone for liking her type of dog and getting a pup from her.

Echo- Health testing is the same as Mystic, only hips and eyes, I'd like to know why she doesn't do hearts or PRA. As far as her dogs go, they're somewhat all over the place. She has dogs that look similar to Mystic's and dogs similar to Polar Mist and dogs that don't look like either Mystic's or Polar mist. Some of the dogs are snippy, some have loads of substance, some are leggy, some lack coat, others have too much coat. The type isn't consistent. I wouldn't get a pup for show from her because it would be too much of a gamble, I may get what I want or I could get something entirely different. I would look to get an older pup or adult instead, that way I know what type I'm getting.

Braveheart- There isn't much info to be found or determined on her breeding progam since it appears she's only bred 2 litters out of 1 female. Her girl is fully health tested with a CHIC #; and many of the resulting pups have been tested, though I'm not sure if that's because of the breeder or the owners doing. From the pictures her female "Roxane" she appears to be very long. Her pups are all lovely looking, with both good and bad points, as all are. Her other female "Delilah" appears to be high in the rear, though that could be an ilussion created by weak pasterns in the front. Her girl Roxane was born in Oct 98, and she has a pic of her two girls together as pups so I would imagine they're the same age. Unless she has other dogs not seen on her website or will be using a pup out of Roxane I don't think she's going to be breeding any time soon.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
AnimalCracker- I'm so sorry I was so harsh. It's so hard to tell over the internet. :eek: Please accept my apology.

Your reply was great and I'm going to give you points, if I can figure out how to do it on here. PolarMist is my favorite, too. FYI- she posts litters that she co breeds, so she really doesn't have all of those dogs at her house. That would have been a huge turn off for me. She's got 8 dogs that she lives with.

She also knows more about dogs then an encyclopedia, and is fascinating to talk to. Very, Very nice lady.

I'm also checking out tundraice (thanks for the suggestion wabanafcr) as well as Wolf River and Hawk Wind. Part of me feels like a stalker:eek:

I'm also look at Krystall (behind the Eukanuba Best in Show), Moonlighter and a few others that I can't even remember right now. And so the search and research continues. :D

Thank you all for the time and effort you took to look at those websites. It's very kind of you.
 

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Part of me feels like a stalker
Welcome to the world of responsible dog shopping xD

"Finding your next breeder: Stalking accepted everywhere you want to be....or already are.....because you're a stalker."
 

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AnimalCracker- I'm so sorry I was so harsh. It's so hard to tell over the internet. :eek: Please accept my apology.
No apology needed ;) I've learned to develop a thick skin from competing in so many fairs and dog shows. It's pretty hard to upset me, especially over the internet where tone is impossible to convey.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks, anyway. You were more helpful then you know, I think.

I'll keep you all posted. I'm sure you'll be waiting with baited breath, LOL! ;-)
 

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Magic Mist- Despite them having nice looking dogs I would not get a pup from them. From the info on thier site and the OFA their breeding practices are not up to the standard that I would consider a good breeder. Thier foundation bitch only had her hips tested, mind you that was back in 93'. The conerning part is that she rated fair and yet they still bred her, twice. The other 2 litters they bred were using a daughter of their foundation bitch. Both of the litters were quite small, first litter had 2 pups second had 1 pup. That's not normal for a Sammie and I would be curious to know why the litters were soo small. Though I would probaly gander that her having the second litter at 10 yrs old certainly didn't help any. IMHO breeding any dog at 10 is too old, regardless of breed. I can't fathom any reasonable excuse for it. Breeding a dog with a Fair rating puts me on the fence with them, but breeding a dog a 10 yrs old is what really pushes me over the edge and makes me question their breeding partices.

Pebbles Run- Well I can certainly see why you may be drawn to them. There's always beautiful ads for Lovey in my dog magazines. However we need to look at things objectively and not just be blinded by all the very big wins. As far as type goes they are all gourgeous, not too over or under done. If were nit picking, I would like to see stronger pasterns(this seems to be a patern here), and more angulation in the rear(both the stifle and hock joints apear to be getting straighter with continued breeding). Again they only do hips and eye testing, I would want to know why they don't do hearts or PRA tests. I noticed that they haven't kept up to date with the annual CERF testing. It's apparent that they know it's an annual test, since they've done it annualy at different times for thier dogs. I also saw they just bred Lovely to Frisco, I personaly would not have bred this litter. Frisco has a Fair hip score and a E1-Lens, punctate cataract *significance unknown. IMO he should never be bred as I can't see what he has to offer the breed that can't be found elsewhere. Lovely is also not current on her CERF, if your breeding to a dog with a know eye problem why have they not ensured that she hasn't developed a problem. The last and only time she had the CERF done was back in 06', so it's not like she was just barely overdue. I'd also be concerned about the hip health of the litter since Lovely's sire rated Fair as well. Honestly looking in more detail at the health results of all thier dogs I would pass on them unless they start significantly changing the bloodlines their dogs are comming from.

Shadow Wood- They tick off all the boxes and then some. To be super critical they only do hips and CERF, same as the rest I would want to know why. However that's the only slightly negative point I can see. They've health tested their dogs since the mid seventies. Their dogs all have a very lovely and consitent type, and I'm not seeing loads of weak pasterns. For the added bonuses not only are thier dogs prety, but they're smart too, with both conformation and obedience titles. They have loads of useful information about the breed, suprizingly not many breeders websites provide information about their breed. I would definitely consider a pup from them.

Celtic Frost- Another good choice here. They do health test, but not CHIC, interestingly they do a thyroid test. Very lovely dogs, a bit long, but balanced overall. The only speed bump that you may have is getting any future pup registered with the AKC. Since they're in Canada the pup will have to be registered with the CKC first and then dual reg with the AKC. Normaly it goes rather smoothly. Thankfully it looks like they have experience with the process, which can be rather confusing. However it can be time consuming and you may have to wait till your pup is older before you can show.
 

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Fair is still a passing grade. You should keep in mind what you're breeding TO, but fair is NOT dysplastic
 

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Fair is still a passing grade. You should keep in mind what you're breeding TO, but fair is NOT dysplastic
I know that, but you're not going to be improving much with a Fair. There's also not a lack of dogs with Good or Excellent ratings. Using OFA's search feature, in the last 10 years 3220 Samoyeds had thier hips tested. Of that 2736 rated Excelent or Good, 450 rated Fair. Why breed a Fair dog when there's so many better ones that could be used.
 

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Because you need to consider what's BEHIND the dog too. If the dog has fabulous attributes otherwise, but is "fair", there's no reason to "Throw it out" if the hip production behind it is sound, and if the dog is throwing "Good" and "excellent" itself.

Strauss has a "fair" parent...he OFA'd good. The hips behind him were good too.

I'd be concerned breeding Fair x Fair, but not Fair x Good or Fair x Excellent. Heck, I'd be concerned that Excellent x Excellent could produce hips that are too tight :p
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thank you for the great responses!!

I think I'm going to choose between the kennels that I'm comfortable with, but I think I've contacted the best of the best when it comes to the sammy breeders.

Now, I just need to do more research with the bloodlines involved (for example Celtic Frost has bloodlines from Polar Mist and a few others).

Celtic Frost is in Canada, but they do travel to show. I'm going to visit the Samoyed Specialty show in October of this year to get a good feel for the breed and the breeders there in.

There is also a local meeting of samoyed breeders much closer to me that's occuring in May that will more then likely attend.

I can't wait to see the dogs in person, and the specialty will allow me to see them both in the ring and in working events.

Again, thank you so much for the information. It has been very, very helpful to me. I think I have a better understanding of the standard and how it applies to real time dogs, and the different health tests that are important to do, and also how the health tests apply to the quality of life that my pet will have.

That's a big deal. I think it's sad that more people don't realize that when they breed their pets. There's SO MUCH that goes breeding.

It's not just throwing two dogs together to make some money...

*sigh* that's a rant for another time!!
 
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