[Pai]

I was reading Dog News this morning, and saw at the back of the latest issue an ad by the ARC reminding judges that the breed is supposed to be docked and to not reward naturally-tailed dogs.

Not to go into the whole docking debate again, but I was curious as to why they felt the need to buy a reminder ad in a dog show magazine? Are the number of natural-tail Rotties being seen in the ring going up lately? Is there a clique of Rottie 'rebels' that are putting tailed dogs into the ring?

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

I'm not sure if the numbers of tailed exhibits are rising, but ARC feels the need to remind judges and the general dog showing committee from time to time that our breed standard states DOCKED SHORT, leaving one or two vertebra.

And yes, there is that "clique" out there who feels that this portion of the breed standard is insignificant, can be ignored, or interpreted in whatever way they see fit.

This will be my only comment on this topic as it nearly always degenerates into a flame specatacle.

 

[Pai]

No prob, I was just wondering if this was becoming a common thing, since they felt a need to make a statement like that.

 

[Reiko89]

I definitely am not saying I disagree that these dogs should have their tails docked as per the standard, but I don't see what the issue with HAVING a tail is, I find this dog very handsome. The only thing I think I disagree with is cropping ears... or tail docking at home, my mom bought two yorkies from two different breeders who docked at home, one dog grew up with almost no tail and the other has a tail that's too long.... I ALSO strongly dislike people who dock Pitty tails.... They SHOULD NOT have docked tails....

 

[Pai]

Thing is, the proper place for people to debate the current standard's requirements is within the breed club. It's kind of rude to just burst into the ring with a tailed dog (which is controversial) to make a 'statement', imo. The judges at a show are SUPPOSED to use the breed club-approved standard to make their judgements in the ring. It's wrong for them to be asked to disregard it, even if they might personally disagree with parts of it, since their job is to stick to the standard and not get involved in politics or personal opinions (ideally, anyway).

In other words, to bring a tailed Rottie into a show and present it before a judge is putting that judge on the spot and asking them to basically publically disregard the breed standard in front of everyone in the ring and ringside. It's not fair to the judge, since they're not supposed to take a stand against or for any special interest group within a breed.

If certain breed club members want to show tailed Rotties, they could host their own shows for 'natural tails' with a different standard and invite a judge to that, instead. Or make their own club. Though personally I don't think it would be helpful for there to be a split in the Rottie breed purely over tail docking, since usually once a breed splits the two types end up becoming very different.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

I'm not going to cmment on that dog, but it is way incorrect in many respects. It is not the tail AT ALL. It is the BREED STANDARD. Just because they outlawed tail docking right under the noses of the Germans does not mean that we in the US need to alter OUR breed standard which has called for a docked exhibit from it's inception in the 30s.

They can leave the tails on them in Europe or wherever all they freaking want to. The STANDARD is the STANDARD, period.

Also MANY people dock tails at home. It really is no big deal, IF you know what you are doing.

 

[Willowy]

So what would be the proper course of action if a reasonable number of people disagree with the standard? Petition the breed club for an amendment of the standard? Start their own breed club?

I think it would probably be better for the breed as a whole to allow tailed Rotts to show under the same standards (except for the docked tail), rather than force a split.

 

[Reiko89]

I'm not going to cmment on that dog, but it is way incorrect in many respects. It is not the tail AT ALL. It is the BREED STANDARD. Just because they outlawed tail docking right under the noses of the Germans does not mean that we in the US need to alter OUR breed standard which has called for a docked exhibit from it's inception in the 30s.

They can leave the tails on them in Europe or wherever all they freaking want to. The STANDARD is the STANDARD, period.

Also MANY people dock tails at home. It really is no big deal, IF you know what you are doing.

I know you're a rottweiler expert and everything and you probably just could tear that dog apart conformationally, but I am not an expert, I am a pet owner, if I were looking for a PET rottweiler, I would not pass this dog up just because he has a tail, yes, it's a dumb thing to ignore the breed standard because of what you believe, and I don't agree with people who think they know better and try to change the standard on their own by refusing to dock the tails. And sorry if I seem dumb for not liking home docked tails, but I have never seen someone who could do it right, I've seen dogs with bald patches on the end of their tail, and then the no tailed yorkie and the long tailed yorkie, I just think if you can't do it correctly, then don't do it.

 

[Willowy]

Well, in all fairness, some of the worst dock jobs I've seen were done by a vet. Not all of them can do it either. I don't thiink it's covered in vet school. And I imagine to get good at it, everybody messes up the first few times they do something.

 

[Inga]

I have never seen a bad dock job done by a vet but I have seen many butchered cropped ears by vets. Docking isn't rocket science, but each breed has it's own standard for length. Rottweiler's is 1-2 vertebrae, Boxer's, German Shorthairs, etc... slightly longer. Each one has it's own and many backyard breeders don't breed to standard, don't even educate themselves on what the standard is so obviously, they don't worry about docking to standard either. There are good breeders that dock their own pups, and do it well.

 

[Keechak]

A friend of mine and a great Dobe breeder braught her last litter in to get docked and one of the puppies came out with only one vertibre left! Needless to say The breeder was royally PO'ed and the vet got an earfull.

 

[Inga]

A friend of mine and a great Dobe breeder braught her last litter in to get docked and one of the puppies came out with only one vertibre left! Needless to say The breeder was royally PO'ed and the vet got an earfull.

Does Candy currently have a litter?

 

[Keechak]

Candy doesn't breed, but Barb had a litter a year or so ago.

 

[Xeph]

Any news on Turk? Is he finished yet?

 

[Kyllobernese]

The Vet in our area will not dock a dog or take their dewclaws off which means you are going to get a lot of people doing their own and not necessarily knowing what they are doing. I know someone who is banding their puppies tails like they do on lambs, haven't seen any of the results and don't think I would want to.

 

[Laurelin]

To the OP I have seen more tails in the ring, but not necessarily in rotties. I noticed quite a few tailed dogs at Reliant in traditionally docked breeds.

To Red, what happens if someone imports an adult rottie to show in the US?

 

[ADA]

The Breed Standards are set by a smallish group of breed people any one of whom dare not or is very unlikely to break away from "tradition" for fear of the repercussions it is likely to have on their dogs in and out of the ring.
It should be remembered that the Rottweiler originates in Germany and if the Germans have reinvented thier breed then perhaps N America should pay attention. The AKC standard (framed by the US breeders and rubber stamped by the AKC) states @Tail--Tail docked short, close to body, leaving one or two tail vertebrae. The set of the tail is more important than length. Properly set, it gives an impression of elongation of topline; carried slightly above horizontal when the dog is excited or moving.> Obviously this clause would not apply to a docked dog! So an undocked dog has every right to be in the ring and given FAIR appraisal by the breed judge (or a refund of their entry fee...!) In fact in Sept 07 an imported undocked Dutch Rottweiler was an American and Canadian Kennel Club Champion.
To be able to show in some of the big European Shows it is now obligatory to have an undocked and uncropped dog.
see http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/utilwork_12.htm [URL="http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/utilwork_12.htm"] [/URL
In the USA it is understood that the breed carries the von Willibrand gene and if parents are carriers it could result in a litter dying when docked - but who knows how often this happens other than the breeder/vet - and who is going to tell?......

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

The Breed Standards are set by a smallish group of breed people any one of whom dare not or is very unlikely to break away from "tradition" for fear of the repercussions it is likely to have on their dogs in and out of the ring.
It should be remembered that the Rottweiler originates in Germany and if the Germans have reinvented thier breed then perhaps N America should pay attention. The AKC standard (framed by the US breeders and rubber stamped by the AKC) states @Tail--Tail docked short, close to body, leaving one or two tail vertebrae. The set of the tail is more important than length. Properly set, it gives an impression of elongation of topline; carried slightly above horizontal when the dog is excited or moving.> Obviously this clause would not apply to a docked dog! So an undocked dog has every right to be in the ring and given FAIR appraisal by the breed judge (or a refund of their entry fee...!) In fact in Sept 07 an imported undocked Dutch Rottweiler was an American and Canadian Kennel Club Champion.
To be able to show in some of the big European Shows it is now obligatory to have an undocked and uncropped dog.
see http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/utilwork_12.htm [URL="http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/utilwork_12.htm"] [/URL
In the USA it is understood that the breed carries the von Willibrand gene and if parents are carriers it could result in a litter dying when docked - but who knows how often this happens other than the breeder/vet - and who is going to tell?......

And what is your experience with the Rottweiler Breed, the American Rottweiler Club, and the ARC Rottweiler breed standard? The breed standards are voted on by the entire club, as are any changes made to it. Changes must pass by a 3/4 margin to be approved. The Rottweiler standard has not been changed since 1990, when it was altered from allowing 3 missing teeth to allowing one, and other minor changes.

It was reopened in I think 2007, changes were proposed, but not ratified, so it is closed for 5 years from that date. OUR breed standard has nothing to do with Germany or the FCI, THANK GOD. Thank God ONE country and ONE breed club has had the stones to keep this breed in its original state.

The tails are changing the entire breed where docking has been outlawed, and NOT for the better. Tell you what. When I can take my LEGALLY docked dogs and show them at the Klub Show, then we should entertain opening our rings to the tailed dogs.

Until then drug store cowboys like you should butt out.

 

[Willowy]

Tell you what. When I can take my LEGALLY docked dogs and show them at the Klub Show, then we should entertain opening our rings to the tailed dogs.

I don't see why whether you're allowed to show in other countries or not has any bearing on whether tailed Rotts should be allowed to show in the U.S. The 2 things have nothing to do with one another.

And it sounds like you have a problem with people trying to change the tail set. . . Again this has nothing to do with docking or not. If the tailed dogs were judged by the same standard, tail set and everything, what's the difference? If one of your dogs went undocked, nothing would change except that the dog would have a full tail. Correct tail set remains the same regardless of the length of the tail.

I don't think people should be forced to betray their convictions or give up on showing their heart breed. As long as they don't force you not to dock, what does it hurt if they choose to show a tailed dog?

And nobody answered my question---what would be the proper course of action for the Rott-showing people who wish to show a tailed Rott? A breed split with a separate breed club, petitioning the existing breed club, or something else entirely?

 

[sassafras]

The tails are changing the entire breed where docking has been outlawed, and NOT for the better.

I understand if you don't want to get into this, but I'm curious what other changes you are seeing. It's a shame if the overall quality or soundness of the dogs is suffering.