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Discussion Starter #1
So after learning a bunch of ways to train my dog. I'm digging in a little further. I use all ways of teaching, I'm not stuck on clicker, e-collar, old school or whatever.

So take classical/operant conditioning and reinforcing conditionings.

So example . You first teach what sit position is, next you give it a cue name 'sit'. Now your dog learns that the cue sit, means "I, the dog, will sit"
But now the trainer wants to condition the dog to perform it consistantly when the cue is given.

Side note: Ways to reinforce
1. To satisfy a dogs desire, (food for hunger, water for thirst)
2. Immediate reward (praise, food, a dog butt to smell, a yard to run in)
3. High value reward that makes the dog goes nuts or a large quantity of a type of reward given at one time
4. Consistant reward which cue is followed with correct behavior.

Positive Reinforcement.
You cue sit, dog sits, you treat(pet, verbal praise, give toy), dog then sits. Your dog's response behavior to sit cue becomes more frequent.

or you do

Negative Reinforcement
(Dog already knows the cue sit)
You have a constant pulling up on the collar, dog has discomfort. You cue sit, dog sits, you release tension on collar bringing comfort to dog. Dog's response behavior to sit cue becomes more frequent.

So the question is, do I practice both? I say yes. You juggle between the two.

Like for automatic sit during a heel. You can physically put dog into position or use a treat as a lure. (all or nothing)
1. You teach sit position physically, then reward (tuck tail between legs and pressure on chest)
2. You teach sit cue while you physically put dog into sit, then reward
3. You cue sit and dog sits, without you physically putting dog into sit, then reward.
4. You heel, stop, put dog into sit position physically, then reward
5. You heel, stop, cue sit, put dog into sit position physically, then reward
. You heel, stop, check and hold up, cue sit, physically put dog into sit by tucking tail between legs, dog sits, release check, then reward
6. You heel, stop, you check and hold up, dog sits, release check, then reward
7. You heel, stop, dog sits, then reward

Basic formula to teach automatic sit. Extensive yes, but you are REINFORCING SIT. You can change the reward, positive or negative.
Yes, doing a hangman on the check just to get a sit may seem harsh for some, but I say "enough discomfort for the dog NOT TO FREAK OUT OR GO CRAZY"

I didn't even get into positive punishment and negative punishment for sit.
 

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Alot of Trainer refer to this as "Balance training" Using motivators but also believing in consequences.

I find that with any training, changing any behavior or creating a new one, there is always like 20 different ways to go about teaching it, I think it just really boils down for what works for that individual dog.

I try to use as much positive reinforcement/negative punishment as possible when I am training. (With young puppys there is NEVER EVER more correction then a tiny verbal one, its all about building trust and respect at that age.)

It is impossible to believe you can get a perfect response's every single time with EVERY SINGLE DOG by using JUST these two approaches. So I agree to what your saying, yes SOME dogs do need more balance training.

However, I also believe that many people, are lazy and expect a quick fix with their dogs behavior issues, and end up misusing and abusing alot of adverse methods. Many Many dogs end up Very damaged by peoples misuse of shocks,Forced positions, chokes, head collars, Heck Ive even seen people abuse the clicker before! Many dogs end up mentally damaged Some dogs don't respond well to over-correction and BITE BACk in defense of their life, some may become nervous or aggressive, some even end up very physically damaged as well.

So, when talking about differnt methods negative reinforcement/positive punishment, and saying how they work so great, Well tell that to a brand new dog owner who just dose know better and its a recipe for disaster yet another dog thrown into the already overcrowd shelters. Although these ways of training can work well under the guidence of a professional trainer


I would never promote any adverse methods to any new dog owner ever unless, the handlers are taught to use the adverse method (as a TOOL not a fix) by an EXPERIENCED PROFESSIONAL TRAINER and only after all the other positive softer methods have failed
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Well, dog obedience and pack leader/alpha/pecking order are two different things. The pack leader/trust/respect thing should be number 1 on dog training. People who don't realize that, shouldn't have a dog.

These type of people are the ones who misuse methods.

I'm no pro,but I read and listen and watch and PRACTICE dog training. I ALWAYS read posts online or videos on teaching dogs JUST Positive Reinforcement or using a treat as a LURE. You watch the videos, THEIR AT HOME TRAINING and of course the dog is going to sit, and down, and heel at home, DUH. And it's these people who advocate, "No punishment" "E-collar is bad in the wrong hands"

For the most part, all the vids see of people using E-Collars, their dogs are off leash, heeling side by side, sitting on command QUICKLY.

The anti punishment people then say, "You can do it without shocking" I mean, your suppose to get a QUALITY E-COLLAR with a lot of static shock LEVELS. More the better, that way you can narrow down the nick where it isn't a BIG SCARE but like a small pinch.

NOOOO!!!! The anti punishment people don't say that. THey just go, "You're a meany" But at the same time. When they do post a video on a how to, they use a treat to lure a dog to sit and it's like, "SEE, you don't need punishment" Blah Blah Blah.


I have 3 dogs, different pain threshold, different motivators to get them into drive.

My jack russell is hyperactive like hell. My German shepard can run for 10 minutes and go to bed all day. My jack russell has to run 2 hours. My chiuahua can walk for 10 minutes and get tired.

What people do wrong is not figure out how to set the enviornment so the dog can learn. They do not desensitize dogs to their environment. They don't build confidence in a dog to learn. And then they don't build their dog into a mind frame where the dog wants to obey you commands cause the DOG KNOWS THERE'S A BOND SESSION GOING AND THE DOG WANTS IN.

Sometimes it's not the training method. But the relationship. I support aversion methods. I use e-collars. I use pinch collars. I use clicker method and I use a clicker while a train, which are two different things. I don't use a slip collar though.

Here's the secret though for newbies.
1. Find all the ways to reward your dog.
2. Find all the methods to teach sit, then down, then heel, then come.
3. Find all the ways to motivate you dog.
4. Find all the ways to reinforce a good behavior

Write down all the locations where you will ever bring your dog. Now your going from less distractions to more distractions.

Perform all the ways to motivate your dog in location 1. Take note on which one got the quickest and consistant result. Now do all the ways you know to command "whatever, sit, down" Note down which one was the quickest and consistant. Now reward the dog with all the ways that you know how, in location 1, pet, food, toy, sniff. Note which one helped the dog perform the cue more frequently.

Now raise the distraction. That's it. And build a healthy relationship, good diet and excercise, read more dog books and watch videos.
Goal after that is to desensitize. To the point where to the dog, 'that distraction or enviornment is no big deal'

Sometimes people use TOO MUCH positive reinforcement as a QUICK FIX not a TOOL. Sometimes you need some "punishment" to show your dominance. Sometimes a big enough "punishment" to stop a bad behavior and promote learning.

Remember how you touch a hot stove. Bet you won't do that again. Or you are running a bath, you turn the dial 3/4 turn to hot. You touch the water, it's too HOT. You turn the dial back to 1/2 turn. The water is just right. So IN THE FUTURE YOU LEARN WHICH POSITION THE DIAL SHOULD BE NEXT TIME. OR ELSE IF YOU TURN THE DIAL TO THE WRONG POSITION, YOU'LL GET BURNT.

Sometimes you need these 'punshiment' scenarios to find your boundries. I want a smart and obedient dog. Not just obedient.

Side note: I use clickers as a marker. I also use 'good' as a marker. I use a pinch collar. I teach the position first, then to link a cue name to the position. I have about a minimum of 4 ways to reinforce a good consequence. I then teach using positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. A little bit of avoidance/escape training. Just to see where my level is at. I use positive punishment for a quick correction followed by a positive reinforcement only if a bad behaviour can't be remedied with a positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement. But that's kind of on feeling, not a rule.
 

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The pack leader/trust/respect thing should be number 1 on dog training. People who don't realize that, shouldn't have a dog.

These type of people are the ones who misuse methods.
I guess I shouldn’t have a dog. I don’t for a second consider how my dog views me in her “pack”. It’s not even a question, therefore, it is the least import part of my training, and there’s no way you could conclude I’m the type of person who misuses methods. This makes zero sense.

I ALWAYS read posts online or videos on teaching dogs JUST Positive Reinforcement or using a treat as a LURE. You watch the videos, THEIR AT HOME TRAINING and of course the dog is going to sit, and down, and heel at home, DUH.
If a behavior is being acquired, where else would you recommend training a behavior? In the middle of highway traffic?

And it's these people who advocate, "No punishment" "E-collar is bad in the wrong hands"
I don’t know who you’re talking about but I’ve never heard any trainer recommend no punishment. And where exactly is the flaw in keeping shock collars out of the wrong hands? If the handler used a clicker to bounce it off the dog’s head, you could say the same about clickers.

The anti punishment people then say, "You can do it without shocking" I mean, your suppose to get a QUALITY E-COLLAR with a lot of static shock LEVELS. More the better, that way you can narrow down the nick where it isn't a BIG SCARE but like a small pinch.
Well, you can do it without shocking the dog, but that’s not your point. Guess what? E-collar users want to phase out the use of shock too. Don’t confuse the idea of using the least harmful, least aversive method first, with being “anti punishment”. There’s no such thing. What people advocate is the humane use of the tool, and exhausting all other, less harmful, less aversive, methods first. What is wrong with this logic? Or do you not consider classical conditioning in your training?

NOOOO!!!! The anti punishment people don't say that. THey just go, "You're a meany" But at the same time. When they do post a video on a how to, they use a treat to lure a dog to sit and it's like, "SEE, you don't need punishment" Blah Blah Blah.
I think you’re being equally dramatic, and I’m not sure where you’re trying to go with it.

Sometimes people use TOO MUCH positive reinforcement as a QUICK FIX not a TOOL. Sometimes you need some "punishment" to show your dominance. Sometimes a big enough "punishment" to stop a bad behavior and promote learning.
What do you mean “too much positive reinforcement as a quick fix”? That makes no sense. If you’re using positive reinforcement to get the behavior you want, how can you have too much of what you want?

Yes, you can punish a dog to dominate him, but I would ask the question, why is the resource even a question? And yes, sometimes you need to punish a dog for his safety, but this is not a justification for the use punishment in training.

Remember how you touch a hot stove. Bet you won't do that again. Or you are running a bath, you turn the dial 3/4 turn to hot. You touch the water, it's too HOT. You turn the dial back to 1/2 turn. The water is just right. So IN THE FUTURE YOU LEARN WHICH POSITION THE DIAL SHOULD BE NEXT TIME. OR ELSE IF YOU TURN THE DIAL TO THE WRONG POSITION, YOU'LL GET BURNT.
I once left the safety guard off a table saw, and nearly lost my thumb. You bet I learned to always leave the safety guard on. But guess what?...along with my learning came a fear of table saws. I have to now be extra cautious when using one. I, however, do not have a relationship with the table saw like a dog has with his human. Why on doG’s green Earth would I want my dog to have the same fear over me?

I have about a minimum of 4 ways to reinforce a good consequence.
I think you mean to say you use 4 ways to reinforce a good ‘behavior’. Your reinforcer is the consequence.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hahahahahahp, CP, you're the one that fits the description!!!! Hahahahah.
Like why so defensive unless I'm hitting a truthful nerve. hahahaha Sorry I'm going against the happy go lucky, no punishment cause it's mean, just use treats crowd.

Like you went out of your way to be all authority. That's cute and funny. I love this board. Keep up the good work. Remember, click and treat good behavior and don't use e-collars and pinch collars cause that's mean. Oh and also, don't put your dog on it's side. That's mean. Ceasar Millan is mean.

You crack me up.

Back at the task at hand.

So it's about elicitting the behavior. Then giving it a cue. Then reinforcing that good behavior. Practicing long downs/sits are great. Then desensitizing your dog to the enviornment.

hahaa, you don't practice pack teachings, hahaha CP, you're funny. Did you graduate from Petsmart or Petco. hahaha.
 

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I don't know what you're finding so humorous; your insults will quickly place you on the short term program here on our forum. I'll afford you this one miscalculation in judgment, if you're not capable of discussing this subject intelligently, your second miscalculation will be your last.
 

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Hahahahahahp, CP, you're the one that fits the description!!!! Hahahahah.
Like why so defensive unless I'm hitting a truthful nerve. hahahaha Sorry I'm going against the happy go lucky, no punishment cause it's mean, just use treats crowd.

Like you went out of your way to be all authority. That's cute and funny. I love this board. Keep up the good work. Remember, click and treat good behavior and don't use e-collars and pinch collars cause that's mean. Oh and also, don't put your dog on it's side. That's mean. Ceasar Millan is mean.

You crack me up.

Back at the task at hand.

So it's about elicitting the behavior. Then giving it a cue. Then reinforcing that good behavior. Practicing long downs/sits are great. Then desensitizing your dog to the enviornment.

hahaa, you don't practice pack teachings, hahaha CP, you're funny. Did you graduate from Petsmart or Petco. hahaha.
reafe
I don't understand what you're pushing here. I'm old school with all that entails, e-collars, J.A.S.A force collars (which makes a prong collar look like a feather bed) flushing whips, buggy whips etc etc etc. On the other side there are treats, stroking/petting Spam(my favorite treat) etc. All are tools to be used as needed. You started this thread asking for opinions methods etc and now it appears you have lost your way and have decided to just try to impress us with your style. Also to make fun of those who do not agree with whatever it is you are trying to sell. Your credibility here has taken a beating. If you are trying to help people at all you have a weird way of showing it.
 

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Hahahahahahp, CP, you're the one that fits the description!!!! Hahahahah.
Like why so defensive unless I'm hitting a truthful nerve. hahahaha Sorry I'm going against the happy go lucky, no punishment cause it's mean, just use treats crowd.

Like you went out of your way to be all authority. That's cute and funny. I love this board. Keep up the good work. Remember, click and treat good behavior and don't use e-collars and pinch collars cause that's mean. Oh and also, don't put your dog on it's side. That's mean. Ceasar Millan is mean.

You crack me up.

Back at the task at hand.

So it's about elicitting the behavior. Then giving it a cue. Then reinforcing that good behavior. Practicing long downs/sits are great. Then desensitizing your dog to the enviornment.

hahaa, you don't practice pack teachings, hahaha CP, you're funny. Did you graduate from Petsmart or Petco. hahaha.
Wow. Was this supposed to make sense?
 

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"I ALWAYS read posts online or videos on teaching dogs JUST Positive Reinforcement or using a treat as a LURE. You watch the videos, THEIR AT HOME TRAINING and of course the dog is going to sit, and down, and heel at home, DUH." Reafe

I prefer not to lure. Shaping is more fun. Our dogs learn way more than sit, down, stand and heel. We start at home, then we travel to the yard, nearby neighborhoods, parks, parking lots, community events, dog friendly stores, training centers, seminars, and fun matches. We end up competing successfully in Agility, Rally O, Flyball, Obedience, etc. :cool:
 

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Alot of Trainer refer to this as "Balance training" Using motivators but also believing in consequences.
I guess I look at "consequences" differently.

I believe all actions have consequences. Wally sits and waits at the open door, I call him through the door. If not - I block him and stay in his way until he sits.

I ask for a behavior. He performs it - he gets a reward. If he doesn't, or offers the wrong behavior - no reward.

To me, those are all action -> consequence. It could be a reward, or a delaying in what he wants to do.

As far as I understand, reinforcement is always a consequence of a performed behavior (otherwise it's not reinforcing anything). Maybe I'm just mixed up.

Well, dog obedience and pack leader/alpha/pecking order are two different things. The pack leader/trust/respect thing should be number 1 on dog training. People who don't realize that, shouldn't have a dog.
How so? If the dog follows your direction, then he's accepting your leadership. Leaders make the rules (and enforce them when broken). Followers follow the leader's direction, which is a big part of any training under any method.

To me, the method of training is just how you get the dog to accept your leadership.


I'm no pro,but I read and listen and watch and PRACTICE dog training. I ALWAYS read posts online or videos on teaching dogs JUST Positive Reinforcement or using a treat as a LURE. You watch the videos, THEIR AT HOME TRAINING and of course the dog is going to sit, and down, and heel at home, DUH. And it's these people who advocate, "No punishment" "E-collar is bad in the wrong hands"

For the most part, all the vids see of people using E-Collars, their dogs are off leash, heeling side by side, sitting on command QUICKLY.
And you can achieve the same thing without using those methods. Not to say those methods are wrong, but they are not the only ones that can get quick performance from a dog. To me, fast performance is a result of the behavior being well understood and well reinforced.

And yes, anything - even a clicker - can be bad in the wrong hands.

And yes, I train my dog at home. I teach him at home to get the behavior understood before I "hit the road" with it and have him perform it while in the middle of 40 MPH winds pushing him around and trees rustling over his head on a day everyone decides to do home improvements.


Sometimes it's not the training method. But the relationship. I support aversion methods. I use e-collars. I use pinch collars. I use clicker method and I use a clicker while a train, which are two different things. I don't use a slip collar though.
Unless the handler is making things confusing to the dog, I think it always goes back to the relationship. Heck a good relationship can make the dog try to figure out even confusing directions.



Sometimes people use TOO MUCH positive reinforcement as a QUICK FIX not a TOOL. Sometimes you need some "punishment" to show your dominance. Sometimes a big enough "punishment" to stop a bad behavior and promote learning.
Or punishment/correction to simply tell the dog the track he's on is the wrong one.


Remember how you touch a hot stove. Bet you won't do that again. Or you are running a bath, you turn the dial 3/4 turn to hot. You touch the water, it's too HOT. You turn the dial back to 1/2 turn. The water is just right. So IN THE FUTURE YOU LEARN WHICH POSITION THE DIAL SHOULD BE NEXT TIME. OR ELSE IF YOU TURN THE DIAL TO THE WRONG POSITION, YOU'LL GET BURNT.

Sometimes you need these 'punshiment' scenarios to find your boundries. I want a smart and obedient dog. Not just obedient.
Actually, I wouldn't call that punishment. That's learning from your environment what works and what doesn't. It's a natural process, and I agree it can be quite useful if, like any other method, applied well.

I prefer not to lure. Shaping is more fun. Our dogs learn way more than sit, down, stand and heel. We start at home, then we travel to the yard, nearby neighborhoods, parks, parking lots, community events, dog friendly stores, training centers, seminars, and fun matches. We end up competing successfully in Agility, Rally O, Flyball, Obedience, etc. :cool:
Shaping is cool. I think Wally is starting to get it now (FINALLY!) and not lack initiative about it.

Just the other day, I wasn't even trying to shape him, but he saw a slice of meat in my hand and he was trying four different things in different positions around me and the room trying to get me to give him the food :eek:
 

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=reafe;465279]Well, dog obedience and pack leader/alpha/pecking order are two different things. The pack leader/trust/respect thing should be number 1 on dog training. People who don't realize that, shouldn't have a dog.

These type of people are the ones who misuse methods.
Guess I shouldn't have dogs then, either! I don't give a second's thought about how my dogs view me in their pack (and they go out the door first, too, so that I can close and lock the door. They sit and wait, then hand me their leashes, so we can get on with our walk, or trip to wherever in the car)! I don't use force or aversive methods of training, never used a treat as a lure, either, but I do use OC +R (of course some CC in there, depending), and training sessions are fun for my dogs, and for me. It's all about trust and respect, and my relationship with each dog; THAT'S No. 1 in my book.

I have 4 dogs; 2 adult Standard Poodles, 1 Standard Poodle puppy, and 1 Shih Tzu. My adult dogs get me a beer out've the 'fridge, help with the laundry, find, and bring me the remote, the phone, my purse, car keys, their leashes, and whatever else I may ask for (like my slippers, or a pillow). They help bring in the groceries from the car, and put some of them away. They put their dishes in the sink after they've finished eating, and toss the junk mail in the garbage for me (including the puppy), pick up their toys and put them away, herd the cat inside when he's escaped, and take the garbage out to the back gate by the alley. They find where I parked the car when I've forgotten, hold open the door for me when I need them to, aced their obedience classes, and perform for the kids in shelter, and patients at an adult daycare center (various "tricks," obedience demonstrations, and Canine Freestyle Dance, in addition to playing their role as "good dog" and "bad dog" when educating about approaching a dog). They are as rock solid away from home as they are at home. I've never raised my voice, never used shock collars, choke chains, or prongs.

What do your dogs do for you?


Sometimes people use TOO MUCH positive reinforcement as a QUICK FIX not a TOOL.
Huh?!!

Sometimes you need some "punishment" to show your dominance. Sometimes a big enough "punishment" to stop a bad behavior and promote learning
I fail to see why I should punish a dog who's giving me what I ask for in diverse environments with diverse distractions, around diverse people. I never used punishment to work through the fear-based dog aggression, and other related behavioral issues from my rescue; I used desensitization and counter-conditioning. Had I used aversive methods, I would have further traumatized/damaged this formerly abused dog, who is now the epitomy of a well-behaved dog in public, no matter where I take him.

Sometimes you need these 'punshiment' scenarios to find your boundries. I want a smart and obedient dog. Not just obedient.
My dogs are intelligent, and have been encouraged to think and problem-solve through games designed to do just that, which provides not only mental stimulation, but FUN! When I ask them to do, or to not do something, they comply. We're a team. Our relationship is built on trust and respect. Mutual trust and respect. I don't need a leash, let alone a shock collar!

I think you're just having fun telling us what a great trainer you are, and how dumb we are! LOL
 

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ROFLMAO!

They don't do windows, and they don't do taxes! :D
Well I got to blame the owner for that as I know the dogs are smart enough to handle the tax programs. So I sense a loophole in your training methods. We will just keep your shortcomings between you and I as we should not let other forum members know anything about this. Once a weakness is shown anything can happen:)
 

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Well I got to blame the owner for that as I know the dogs are smart enough to handle the tax programs. So I sense a loophole in your training methods. We will just keep your shortcomings between you and I as we should not let other forum members know anything about this. Once a weakness is shown anything can happen:)
I am such a better trainer than all of you. I taught Rowdy how to use Quicken in a matter of minutes (it only took a couple of corrections), he's done my taxes for years. If your dog can't do taxes, you shouldn't have a dog.
 

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I am such a better trainer than all of you. I taught Rowdy how to use Quicken in a matter of minutes (it only took a couple of corrections), he's done my taxes for years. If your dog can't do taxes, you shouldn't have a dog.
1. Can I hire Rowdy till 4/15/09?
2. Poodle, you can see what has happened now. The lack of tax skills people may be there to pickup your dogs. I told you this DF is tough.:D
 

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Well jimminy cricket, I've been going about it all wrong all this time. You're right, I need to manhandle my dogs into doing what I want.

I have the powerrrrr!!!!!!!

 
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