Request Help with Picking a Breed

My first thought was that you are going to have to be really careful about the breeders you go to. Both the Rottie and GSD are very popular breeds and there are a lot of people out there trying to breed for money with no clue what they're really doing. What you end up with is a lot of Rotties and GSDs with very unsound temperament. Make sure you go to a good breeder, so that your dog is free of hereditary diseases and temperament issues. Socialisation from an early age is also key.

http://www.wonderpuppy.net/1breeding.php has a ton of useful information on how to pick a good breeder. I think Inga and Xeph (who are our resident Rottie and GSD experts, respectively) will be able to help you with finding a breeder in your area.

As long as you do that, you have nothing to worry about with either a Rottie or a GSD. Both make excellent dogs, wonderful companions, very solid when raised right with the proper amount of time and commitment they deserve. They are very high-drive dogs and need to be kept occupied and well-exercised in order to avoid becoming bored...boredom often results in them trying to amuse themselves (ie digging, barking, escaping, chewing). Exercise to a GSD or Rottie means at least an hour of walking twice a day... some will need more than that, especially in their prime years. Be sure that your wife can provide that.

I would also caution you not to rely on your dog for protection... YOU protect your dog, not the other way around. Just the sight of a Rottie or a GSD is enough to deter most criminals from trying anything funny, but if some idiot actually does attempt to break in or harm your family, you should never expect your dog to recognise or attack him unless it has been professionally trained in protection work or schutzhund. I cannot stress this enough. Get some sturdy locks, an alarm system, get a gun if you absolutely have to. Do not depend on your dog as a primary source of protection... firstly, for your dog's safety, but also because no dog that has not been professionally trained for the job is reliable enough. I know about 10 GSDs and Dobermans and out of those 10 dogs, I know 7 would turn tail and run if they were suddenly placed in a threatening situation. Not all dogs are instinctively protective. If someone breaks into your house, your dog MAY attack him... he may also just stand there barking while your wife tries to fend the baddie off, or he may run behind the couch. Unless you have professionally trained him to be a protection dog, there is no way to tell. Don't rely on your dog to defend you unless you have professionally trained him to do so.

Sorry for that spiel... one last note on the gender of the dog. No, actually male dogs tend to be a bit more goofy and, you know, "every stranger is a friend". I have no experience with male dogs but I have heard that they are a little more attention-seeking and velcro. Females are quite literally bitchier and tend to be slightly more reserved and aloof. (Though looking at my girls, you would never know...*rolls eyes*)

I would actually recommend avoiding both Rotts and GSDs because of the ban on them in base housing and your potential to need that at SOME point during your career, even if it's only temporary.

Since your wife is going to be the primary caretaker, and it sounds like she's uncomfortable with Rotties, I'd recommend that you keep looking and give her final veto power. A backyard and exercise are nice (and exercise is a necessity) but even more important is training.

Dogs can have several reasons for 'protective' behavior. The best is when they are actually protection trained. Responsible owners of protection dogs train ot a level that the dog does NOT get to make the decision to bite a human on his own- ever. He's told when to, and without that ocmmand, he won't do it. Irresponsible 'protection' dog owners (and I put that in quotes because most of the irresponsible folks play at working dog trials and 'protection' trials and/or sell 'guardian' dogs without any real responsibility for the damage they are doing- it's like putting a loaded gun in the hands of a toddler.) There are dogs doing schutzhund and other bitework sports (mondio, FR, etc) that work entirely in prey drive and are just having a blast killing the SLEEVE and might or might not actually be protective when push comes to shove. Last- and these are unfortunately the most common- are dogs with bad temperaments or no training which are allowed to act aggressively in the name of 'being protective'. These dogs are typically either fearful ("you're making me nervous/my mom is acting nervous, so I'm going to growl and snarl in hopes of scaring you away"- the only plus to this type of dog is that they generally will NOT bite unless they feel cornered) or resource guarders ("my mom is MY toy/food/treat dispenser and you don't get access to her.") These are the ones you want to watch out for.

Unless you (AND your wife) are seriously committed to being responsible protection dog owners, I'd recommend you just look at large breeds that come in black and find one that fits your needs in every other way. Nearly ALL dogs will bark at an intruder. (And it's actually very easy to put 'bark-and-bounce-in-place' on a cue - this can be scary from a big dog, without actually being ANYTHING aggressive ).

So, other than 'protective', what are you looking for in a dog? Energy level? Type of personality? How much dog experience do you have? What type (and how much time) do you plan to do, training-wise?

Dogstar and MM brought up good points about housing regulations. There is no such thing here so it slipped my mind to mention it. Many people have difficulty finding housing or getting insurance when they own breeds for a reputation for being dangerous (ranging from Pit Bulls to Dobermans, and certainly GSDs and Rotties). You definitely want to look into that -- ask the relevant authorities before you decide on a breed.

I would go so far as to say that ALL dogs of ANY breed can be trained to bark when they hear someone approaching (save those that are physically unable to bark). If this is sufficient for you, then your options are much wider and you will have to start looking into other criteria like grooming requirements, exercise needs, temperament, trainability, specific activities... I would not rely on the "protective instinct" of any dog, be it a toy breed or a livestock guardian dog. A dog is trained to protect or it is not. In the former case it is reliable, in the latter it is not.

Thanks for all the feedback. I think the biggest thing I learned is that no dog is considered reliable protection unless it's trained for such. It's just hard for me to imagine certain breeds, like Rotties standing by while one of their family members are attacked. I guess it's a matter of they (might) protect the owner but you never know?

I have kind of a harsh story that involves protection dogs. There was military person here (I won't say what branch) who was a dog handler. He shot himself in his room and later died from his wound. After surrounding people heard the shot they ran in and tried to get to him. The dog wouldn't let anybody near him. Fearing they would shoot the dog (you would kind of have to) another dog handler put the dog in the cage himself-- allowing himself to be bitten. His arm was pretty bad as he had it in a sling after he went to the aid station.

I was actually worried they would put the dog down after it had bitten, but the handler said, "Nope. The dog was doing what it was trained to do" I was happy to hear that.

But it brings up a bit of a point. Shouldn't the dogs (or can they be) trained to allow "friendlies" to approach its wounded handler?

USArmyParatrooper said:

Thanks for all the feedback. I think the biggest thing I learned is that no dog is considered reliable protection unless it's trained for such. It's just hard for me to imagine certain breeds, like Rotties standing by while one of their family members are attacked. I guess it's a matter of they (might) protect the owner but you never know?

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Yeah, definitely. It's hard to imagine a Rottie standing by while their owners are attacked... it's also hard to imagine a Golden Retriever snarling viciously and attacking another dog. But both happen. Often. It's all got to do with breed reputation. I'm not saying there's no such thing as predisposed instinct... but instinct is a funny thing. Sometimes it's there in huge doses, sometimes it's barely there at all. Whichever one it is, when it comes to lives on the line, you can't count on the probability.

I have kind of a harsh story that involves protection dogs. There was military person here (I won't say what branch) who was a dog handler. He shot himself in his room and later died from his wound. After surrounding people heard the shot they ran in and tried to get to him. The dog wouldn't let anybody near him. Fearing they would shoot the dog (you would kind of have to) another dog handler put the dog in the cage himself-- allowing himself to be bitten. His arm was pretty bad as he had it in a sling after he went to the aid station.

I was actually worried they would put the dog down after it had bitten, but the handler said, "Nope. The dog was doing what it was trained to do" I was happy to hear that.

But it brings up a bit of a point. Shouldn't the dogs (or can they be) trained to allow "friendlies" to approach its wounded handler?

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There are a lot of variables in the case you mentioned... how the dog was trained, especially. I'm more inclined to believe that the dog was highly confused. I can't see suicide making any sense at all to a dog. The confusion may have led to severely defensive or fearful behaviour... trained protection dogs take their jobs very seriously.

As for your question, protection dogs take direction from their handlers. They do not randomly attack when they sense danger is present. The onus is on the OWNER to decide what is dangerous and what is not... leaving that decision up to the dog is a big mistake and can lead to horrible accidents (little kid climbs into your yard to retrieve a ball, guest comes over unexpectedly, etc). I don't know that much about protection work but I do know that. I would expect that handlers would have a similar "relax, it's okay" cue.

I am just guessing but that dog that was protecting his service master was a highly trained service dog and probably has/had a rank and I am glad too that they did not put the dog down, but I am sure that it is going to take some work to get that dog to accept a new handler. Their is going to be some really work ahead of that dog.

I am sorry, but really you can't have your cake and eat it too, and I agree with the poster before me, that if you are going to train your dog to be sorta like that service dog you are asking for more problems then it is worth.

Let me tell you about the story of my Male husky Tensing. He was a rescue to me and I had mention earlier that usually huskies are excellent with kids unless then have been taught to not like kids. They are very loyal to kids, and Tensing really showed it with his first two families. The story goes that the women accepted Tensing and the Men couldn't stand him and his puppy behavior and was throughly absused my both men, but he was very protective towards the women that he was with and kids to the point one night that one of the men kicked him across the driveway trying to get to the family, because poor Tensing was only 35lbs when I got him. Just before the cancer took over his body he got up to about 72lbs and really didn't look too terribly big but all muscle. If he was that big to have to fight those men they probably wouldn't of had much of a chance if they were that hostile. If someone has a gun then it is most likely all over for the dog in any case.

2nd part of the story I was coming home one night after work and got stop for speeding some how the cop thought I had been driking or was high on something. I failed both tests, because I was really sick with a cold and massive ear infections. They couldn't tell so the orginal cop said I couldn't drive home and had to take me home. Late at night when head lights come to the big pix window in the living room the dog would know I was home and the cop got out just to make sure I got to the door and got it open and said to me boy that is a big dog and I said that is my female Husky you should see my male. She on the small side so it kinda made him think twice.

3rd story ~ I needed some help getting some gravel delived and had to hire some help along with a couple other things. The guy came over and was taken aback by Tensing. I told him the ground rules, that if you do nothing to threaten me or Nikki you will be fine, but I wouldn't want to be you if you decide different. He from right there on for the few times that he had to come to the house that he totally respected my dogs and wanted to know where they were. In the house or yard. Man these things are the closest thing that you can get to a wolf without owning one and at night when it is dark they sure look like one. I know I have scared some people up at a cabin and we got their late and other people were asleep and woke up to see Silver and there room and they had to think for a minute and realize it was Silver, but the comment in the morning was they thought they had a wolf in their room that night. Tensing was also the most stealth gaurder of the yard even when sleeping in the yard and always aware of what was going on. He also always was generally guarding the door encase something was to come in.

I would say that it is more important that you treat the dog well and keep them very happy with the family and if something really threating comes along that a bigger type dog will get involved and asess the situation. I would also say that if you are that worried about the negihborhood get ADT and make sure that someone is always out with the kids and always have a charged phone with you outside. Take a phone to bedroom with you so you can call 911 if someone breaks into the house. JMO

Karen

I personally don't know abut Rotties and Pitbull and in fact I got a little worried watching this Pitt at the vet a month ago and thought that dog was going to try to eat some other dogs for lunch, so I just don't know about kids so much.

I will state again, that it is not the dog it is how they are raised and trained to be. If they are in a bad situation they will be a bad dog. Just look at what the rescue groups have done with the Bad Rap Dogs and Victory Dogs. They are all pretty changed dogs and are all now thriving in their new environments. Those are just two very highly exposed cases.