[Winston's dad]

My 11 week old puppy refuses to go back into his crate in the middle of the night after a potty break. If I lift him in, he doesn't seem to mind, no fussing or whining or anything at all. He just refuses to go in on his own. I know I'm not supposed to be force my dog into crate but does anyone have any ideas on how to resolve this issue?

 

[Toedtoes]

What does he do? Is he wanting to play? Or trying to lay down elesewhere? Or trying to stay with you?

 

[Winston's dad]

What does he do? Is he wanting to play? Or trying to lay down elesewhere? Or trying to stay with you?

His crate is in our bedroom and when I bring him back in from going potty, he plants himself in front of the crate and refuses to go in. Even with treats he will go in just far enough to get the treat. It is a travel crate which opens on the side so he can't go in "deep" in that sense. He doesn't want to play normally although that does happen sometimes. In general he is quite a stubborn puppy. He definitely does want to stay with me but he is right beside our bed already.

 

[Toedtoes]

First thing I would do is evaluate how much time he is crated over a 24 hour period. Guidance is very limited in regards to how long is too long and only refers to single confinements periods, so it's easy to over crate without realizing it. If he is being crated all day while you work, all night while you/he sleeps, and various other times, he could potentially be spending upwards to 18 hours crated in a 24 hour period - and that is too much crating. And he may be balking because he's tired of being locked up.

If he is crated at least 12 hours a day, you may want to find an alternative for some of that time. A baby gate can confine him to one room. Depending on his size, an exercise pen can confine him to a smaller area in a room. Both will allow him free movement (which he needs for his muscle and bone development) while still limiting his access to trouble.

If under 12 hours, then you should go back to the beginning and re-crate train him.

 

[Lillith]

Will he go in by himself during the day? Try shining a light inside the crate so the pup can see better, then toss the treat to the back of the crate. Dogs apparently have far better night vision than we do, but I've noticed sometimes dogs don't like to go into pitch dark spaces, or sometimes green agility dogs don't like the curved, dark colored tunnels because they can't see the end, just a black void. My own dog won't jump off the bed if the room is pitch black. Worth a shot, and if that doesn't work I would up the value of the nighttime treat, like a piece of hot dog or tiny piece of cheese.

 

[Khecha Wacipi]

In general he is quite a stubborn puppy

Please stop thinking of your puppy as "stubborn". dogs, especially puppies, are not stubborn - it just is not a thing with dogs. Attributing human characteristics to dogs is rarely helpful and often to the the detriment of the dog and the human-dog relationship.

If your dog (especially puppy!) doesn't do what you ask them to do, it is because:

--they don't yet fully understand what you want and the dog needs more training
--they are not motivated enough to do what you want and you need to find higher value rewards
--there is a medical or physical or emotional reason the dog doesn't want to do what you want, in which case medical evaluation (not in this case), more gentle training, and higher value treats combined with a great deal of patience, and 100% consistency, will overcome this in most cases.

In this case, just give it time and continue with the training.

Don't worry too much about his not going in on his own. If he doesn't, then don't give him a treat and just gently pop him in there, since that doesn't upset him. If he ever does go in on his own, give him bonus treats and a lot of praise. He will learn that if he refuses, he goes in anyway...but if he goes in on his own, he gets treats. Eventually he will go in on his own to get the treats.

 

[Winston's dad]

Thanks. These are good points for me to remember and try out. I agree, he isn't stubborn in the human sense of the word. Generally, if there something he doesn't want to do, (go outside, come inside, go in his pen or crate) he will simply sit down and not move. But maybe I just need to up the rewards to make so irresistible that he'll come anyway. Question on that - can you over-treat a dog in training? Or will that eventually work it self out over time? Thanks!

 

[Winston's dad]

Will he go in by himself during the day? Try shining a light inside the crate so the pup can see better, then toss the treat to the back of the crate. Dogs apparently have far better night vision than we do, but I've noticed sometimes dogs don't like to go into pitch dark spaces, or sometimes green agility dogs don't like the curved, dark colored tunnels because they can't see the end, just a black void. My own dog won't jump off the bed if the room is pitch black. Worth a shot, and if that doesn't work I would up the value of the nighttime treat, like a piece of hot dog or tiny piece of cheese.

First thing I would do is evaluate how much time he is crated over a 24 hour period. Guidance is very limited in regards to how long is too long and only refers to single confinements periods, so it's easy to over crate without realizing it. If he is being crated all day while you work, all night while you/he sleeps, and various other times, he could potentially be spending upwards to 18 hours crated in a 24 hour period - and that is too much crating. And he may be balking because he's tired of being locked up.

If he is crated at least 12 hours a day, you may want to find an alternative for some of that time. A baby gate can confine him to one room. Depending on his size, an exercise pen can confine him to a smaller area in a room. Both will allow him free movement (which he needs for his muscle and bone development) while still limiting his access to trouble.

If under 12 hours, then you should go back to the beginning and re-crate train him.

Thanks. I'm working on crate training again. He has a pen but otherwise I don't put him in his crate for more than 2 hours at a time, twice a day. So 4 hours total. So I don't think it's too much crating.

 

[Winston's dad]

Please stop thinking of your puppy as "stubborn". dogs, especially puppies, are not stubborn - it just is not a thing with dogs. Attributing human characteristics to dogs is rarely helpful and often to the the detriment of the dog and the human-dog relationship.

If your dog (especially puppy!) doesn't do what you ask them to do, it is because:

--they don't yet fully understand what you want and the dog needs more training
--they are not motivated enough to do what you want and you need to find higher value rewards
--there is a medical or physical or emotional reason the dog doesn't want to do what you want, in which case medical evaluation (not in this case), more gentle training, and higher value treats combined with a great deal of patience, and 100% consistency, will overcome this in most cases.

In this case, just give it time and continue with the training.

Don't worry too much about his not going in on his own. If he doesn't, then don't give him a treat and just gently pop him in there, since that doesn't upset him. If he ever does go in on his own, give him bonus treats and a lot of praise. He will learn that if he refuses, he goes in anyway...but if he goes in on his own, he gets treats. Eventually he will go in on his own to get the treats.

Thanks. These are good points for me to remember and try out. I agree, he isn't stubborn in the human sense of the word. Generally, if there something he doesn't want to do, (go outside, come inside, go in his pen or crate) he will simply sit down and not move. But maybe I just need to up the rewards to make so irresistible that he'll come anyway. Question on that - can you over-treat a dog in training? Or will that eventually work it self out over time? Thanks!

 

[huntfishcamp]

Out of curiosity, when you let him out in the middle of the night, are the lights off in the house/room where the crate is? Perhaps when you are putting him into the crate at bed time the house is still lit, but he's scared of the dark? I don't know. Either way, as another said, I would just plop him back, give him the treat, give him a pet and positive reinforcement, and say good night!

 

[Khecha Wacipi]

Thanks. These are good points for me to remember and try out. I agree, he isn't stubborn in the human sense of the word. Generally, if there something he doesn't want to do, (go outside, come inside, go in his pen or crate) he will simply sit down and not move. But maybe I just need to up the rewards to make so irresistible that he'll come anyway. Question on that - can you over-treat a dog in training? Or will that eventually work it self out over time? Thanks!

You cannot over-treat a dog in training, although you do need to take into account what you are using for treats. they need to be very, very small pieces, for one thing. I mean, tiny. That way you are less likely to treat the dog to the point that he is stuffed. In addition, it should be just enough that the dog really wants to get more, and will pay attention as a result.

And if you are concerned about weight, or if the treats are all that good for him, use kibble for some of the treats and then reduce the amount you feed accordingly. Using tiny pieces of cooked fat free chicken breast is good, or very small treats that have good ingredients in them. I buy high quality moist treats and then cut them down into smaller pieces. String cheese can be used at times, again tiny pieces. Mixing it up so the dog gets different delicious things is also good for keeping their attention.

If the dog is not doing what you want, work to train so you know the dog fully understands why you want. Often, we think the dog knows when really, the dog doesn't. also, dogs do not generalize well, so he may know something perfectly in the kitchen, but need to be re-taught to do it in the back yard or even the bedroom. Once you have taught him and rewarded him for doing what you ask in several places, he will know it applies everywhere.

 

[Toedtoes]

Thanks. I'm working on crate training again. He has a pen but otherwise I don't put him in his crate for more than 2 hours at a time, twice a day. So 4 hours total. So I don't think it's too much crating.

Definitely not too much crating. In that case, I would do as the others suggest. Just put him in the crate. He doesn't have to necessarily want to go in the crate, just as long as he's not avoiding or afraid of or actively fighting the crate.

 

[Winston's dad]

Out of curiosity, when you let him out in the middle of the night, are the lights off in the house/room where the crate is? Perhaps when you are putting him into the crate at bed time the house is still lit, but he's scared of the dark? I don't know. Either way, as another said, I would just plop him back, give him the treat, give him a pet and positive reinforcement, and say good night!

That's actually a good thing to keep in mind. It is light when we put him in first but dark in the middle of the night. I'll keep an eye on that. Thanks.

 

[Uncle Foster]

Restrict fluids two hours before bedtime.
Potty Stop before bed
Bedtime, into the crate.
Good Dog.

An 11 week old puppy should have no trouble sleeping through the night without a potty stop.

Uncle Foster

 

[Toedtoes]

11 weeks old puppies certainly are not all capable of going 6-8 hours without a potty break. A few can do it, but for the vast majority, their bladders are too small to hold it in that long.

 

[Uncle Foster]

11 weeks old puppies certainly are not all capable of going 6-8 hours without a potty break. A few can do it, but for the vast majority, their bladders are too small to hold it in that long.

Can I prove that All lPuppies can? No.

The Internet says 4 months.
I just now wonder what effect removing individual pups from mom and littermates has on sleep depth and duration?

All three of my fostered litters not only could sleep through the night but did sleep and not just 6 or 8 hours. 10 hours with mom and littermates in the crate. Not a creature was stirring..

Watch out wnen the crate door swings open first thing in the morning. Standby the mop!


Uncle Foster

 

[Khecha Wacipi]

Restrict fluids two hours before bedtime.
Potty Stop before bed
Bedtime, into the crate.
Good Dog.

An 11 week old puppy should have no trouble sleeping through the night without a potty stop.

Uncle Foster

Restricting water is never, ever a good idea. Especially for a young animal.

An 11 week old puppy may or may not be able to hold their need to urinate all night. It is an individual thing. It should absolutely not be expected. An 11 week old puppy is still a baby.

Can I prove that All lPuppies can? No.
The Internet says 4 months.

And do you believe everything you read on the internet? I sure don't, especially when it comes to dog care and training. The amount of terrible advice and cruel technique that you can find on the internet is astounding.

And, you cannot make any sweeping statement about what anyone, any animal, can do at any certain age. These things vary. Many, many puppies at 11 weeks still need a potty break in the night.

 

[Invisidog]

My Rough collie puppy would manage to slip out of his collapsible crate in the night (which he would reluctantly go in)
and he would just lay on the floor and sleep there with no accidents. This was in my bedroom, so he was right next to me, he just didn't like being inside the crate. Does the puppy have accidents at all? Maybe you could leave his crate open when he's in? These are just suggestions of things that worked for my puppy, but all puppies are different.