[wildfire_1982]

Okay. I was swayed to Raw Fed Diet. ((thanks again marsha, :wink)

Marsha told me of a website, i went, and loved what i read, and **miracle of miracles** managed to convience one of my best friends(who owns an akita, older 12yrs) into trying raw with her 'n his mother's 2 shitzu's... Our problem...

My puppy is 4months, his is 12yrs, and he's responsible for 2 tiny shitzu's... We are going to start with chicken as its easier to access and cheaper by far for us.

Our delimna. How do we go about it? how much? what should all be in it for the first time meal in respect of each of our dogs(the shitzu's are 1yr 'n 3yrs).

We are complete novice and want to find all this out before attempting the change over. ((gradual change over that is, lol))

Basically... we need to know exactly what to feed and how much to feed.

 

[wildfire_1982]

side note: here is a list of all of my frozen meat products i currently have in my freezer(of course due to them being "frozen" lol)

1LB mild italian pork sausage
2 - 1LB 85% ground chuck
1 Chuck Iron Flat Steak
3LB 93% Ground Round
1LB 85% Ground Round
1LB 73% Ground Round
1LB Feather Bone Riblets
2 - 1/2 LB RibEyes
1 1/2LB Bone In Chops
1/2LB 85% Ground Chuck
1/2LB Chopped Chicken
2 - 1 1/2LB Chicken Thighs
3/4LB Lamb Blade Chop
1 3/4LB Chicken Legs

Let me know if any of this will work to start changing her over, and if so, what 'n how much of each per meal?

 

[Gally]

Sorry I don't have any specific advice but you should read through this site:

http://preymodelraw.com/

Particularly the "How to Get Started" section.

 

[wildfire_1982]

this is the site marsha sent me to..


http://rawfeddogs.org/rawguide.html

will check out the site u gave too.

 

[Niraya]

I don't feed raw (and I won't be even thinking about it for another year at least) but from my understanding most people spend several months researching how to properly do it and what all goes into feeding raw. Sibe helped me out tons and gave me great advice and tips and a ton to think about when I started researching it MONTHS ago after speaking with her about it.

No one here can give you a set amount of how much to feed your dog when doing raw. I do know that you're supposed to feed 2-3% (roughly) of the dogs ideal body weight per day.
You should also be feeding 10% whole raw bones 10% whole raw organs and 80% skeletal muscle meats. Which you already know because you read the websites lol - I was just kind of repeating.

 

[wildfire_1982]

lol Niraya. I am still in the research process. she's 4months old want to start as soon as possible BUT i dont have a extra freezer(apartment dweller here, at current moment). so that is top priority, AFTER i find out how much i'm looking at giving her per day that is(this is where research comes into play at, lol)..

So basically 1A)Research 1B)Deep Chest Freezer ... are my first goal(s). I have a spot for it in the dining room(just gotta do some moving around on microwave/microwave cart, food/water bowls/matt, and highchair plus kitchen table/chairs 'n my desk. lol. I read the 2-3% and 10% but i dont exactly know how big she'll get.. she's a golden retriever/great pryenees mix supposedly(resembles newfoundland puppy tho, but who knows maybe mixing those 2 breeds creates puppies who resemble the newfoundland puppy?? lol)... but she could be as little as 60pounds or as big as 125 pounds. ((she's already 40-45pounds, official weigh on monday but she was weighed again*yes again! lol* and it came up bouncing between 35 and 45*she refused to keep on the scale long enough and i think part of the weight was my foot/knee trying to keep her on it, lol*)).

there is a local meat proccessor down the street from me that hunters use when hunting season is open, he buys/sells meat from hunters that they dont want, or he confiscates the meat when hunters dont pay him for the service of skinning 'n processing of the kill .... I plan to go down there and ask how much it'll cost to raw feed**tip in 1 of the websites given, lol** my puppy, and if he could cut me any deals on the unwanted meat products. Also, gunna call around to local grocery stores and ask them how much their meats are, and when they typically go on sale on the ones not sold .... a few will bristle I know, but if they want my business, they'll manage. lol. I would like to finish off this dry kibble first, that'll give me a month to month 'n half to do complete research 'n talk to knowledgable/expert raw feeders either online or in person even by phone maybe.

 

[Niraya]

Since she's a female she won't weigh anywhere close to 125. Great Pyrenees females go roughly 85-100 pounds and Golden Retriever females 55-65. So I mean while there is quite the difference between the two breeds but by about 5 or 6 months you can roughly guesstimate that she's about half of her adult weight.

If you want to know her weight (and if you can pick her up) you can weigh yourself on a scale at your house and then pick her up and weigh her with you and then subtract the two weights to get the difference and that will give you a rough estimate.

 

[JulieK1967]

Congrats on your decision to go raw!! I highly recommend that you check out the Yahoo Raw Feeding group, too (link below.) It's a very active group with some really experienced raw feeders & newbies, too, and it's really easy to get specific feeding questions answered quickly. As a member, you'll see all the correspondence between members and the questions and answers are SO helpful to us still learning raw feeders. If you join, you'll be provided with lots and lots of links with gads of info to get you started. It was a godsend to me when I switched my Molly to raw.

We started with bone-in chicken breasts & stayed with chicken (thighs, drumsticks, breasts, wing meat) for about 2 weeks while her system got used to her new diet. Chicken backs & bone-in wings can be too much bone so I avoid them, same for feet. We've since added pork (I usually get boneless shoulder. Chicken bone is her main bone), turkey (dark meat, which my family doesn't like so I just cut that off a turkey & we'll eat the white meat), liver & chicken hearts (which usually come with whole chickens) and, this week, lamb. I also scored a beef heart the other day that I'll start her on soon. Beef heart is one of the cheapest red meats. If you join a local food co-op, you can great fantastic deals there too.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

(ps. I think I was a little snotty to you in another thread & I apologize for that )

 

[wildfire_1982]

thats okay Julie. Thanks for the info. I have some of the above mentioned meat but my chicken is the thigh's 'n drumsticks 'n the chopped chicken breasts, as you can see in my 2nd comment on this((the 1st comment basically, lol))... you can see what meats i have in my freezer at current moment.

 

[Kathyy]

If you figure she might be 100 pounds you would start at 2-3 pounds of food a day. Start with chicken. Buy a bag of chicken quarters that are low sodium. Look at the nutrition box on the back for a sodium level of less than 100 mg per serving. Around here a quarter is about a pound so it would be easy to give her one quarter three times a day for starting out. A 10 pound bag would last for 3.3 days on average.

Those legs and thighs are likely too small to be a safe meal for her. One of the toughest parts of feeding raw is appropriate sized meals. Dogs are programmed to get food inside NOW and worry about the consequences later [go off, hork it up and rechomp it most likely]. In nature small meals would be gophers and mice, small bones. Something with chicken bone sized bones would be too large to swallow whole, a rabbit most likely. We are concerned with overfeeding as we aren't fond of horked up food and excessive poop from a house dog so are stuck feeding stuff just the wrong size for chomping up properly. Those legs and thighs are fine IF she would just chomp a few times and swallow but many dogs are so thrilled getting fresh food they will just swallow stuff whole. You don't know if she would respect them or not so don't feed them until you know she does respect small stuff. I have found that the bone knobs on chicken wings, legs and feet can be forced inside kongs and Max will chew down to the knob, not pull the food out but then I have to get that knob out of the kong. So far so good but it wouldn't be a good thing if I couldn't get it out!

The rest of the meat is fine except for the sausage but it is for later. You would cut the bones out of the chops and steaks and throw them away unless they are nearly whole and the small dogs can safely chew the soft stuff off - later.

This is exactly like introducing a human baby to solid food. Feed one bland thing until the gut figures out how to deal with it and then substitute a small amount of a different food increasing as the gut is comfortable. It is perfectly normal for dogs to regurgitate and have horrible poop when switching but don't accept it, change the meals to make it easier for the gut instead of letting it suffer. If there is liquid to soft to mucous even tinges of blood on the poop consider the amount of food, the amount of bone and the amount of fat. Max will still have large soft poop if I overfeed him so I weigh his meals and cut back a bit if he has soft stool. If he hasn't enough bone then he has soft poop, too much bone results in hard to powdery poop. Oddly he had mucous and a tinge of blood but needed MORE bone not less. If there is too much fat a dog can have nasty poop too.

Chicken has a good amount of bone for new to raw dogs, 30% for a whole carcass. It is easy to cut off a bit to make a meal smaller. Most of the fat is in the skin so it is super easy to adjust the amount of fat the dog gets. In time you want to feed less bone and feed all the nice raw skin but taking skin off and feeding the extra bone makes for a raw meal more like the high waste low fat kibble diet most dogs are coming from. And chicken is cheap! You do need to be concerned with the sodium content always check the bag.

 

[InkedMarie]

You need to do research. Some of it your own. I know you've been given websites but there are many other sides, forums, yahoo lists, facebook lists, etc.

 

[wildfire_1982]

took her to the vet today. official weight is 40pounds. 4months old. great pryenees mix or newfie mix definately going by her size and head shape 'n body structure. we estimate her at 90 to 100 pounds at full grown. she gained 10 pounds in last month(however, in all atraspect, it wouldnt have been a that much of a difference if she had been at a proper weight when we first got her 6 weeks ago. i can not believe we've had her for 6weeks now.).

I will start her on the raw diet at the beginning of the month and start her on chicken and turkey. They have Turkey legs at my grocery store, but im gunna contact the local meat store up the street and inquire about any deals he could give me. i thought of giving her the chopped up chicken as a test to find out how she does on it. if she preferes dry kibble or raw ... this way, no money is wasted and i can use up the remaining chopped chicken that i wont be using. that way no food is wasted(unless she doesn't like it, lol)..... i appreciate everybody's input and advice and links to try out. i am a member of a yahoo group and a few facebook pages for raw feeding... will google 'n research raw diet some more... but i wont be starting her on it until after the first of the month. so i have plenty of time yet. i dont want to over-research but yet i dont wan to under-do it. the vet said to try the raw diet and she'd prefere her to be on raw since i can not afford canned/wet or the 5 star dog food. she did say that raw diet is much healthier and better for her digestive system.

 

[InkedMarie]

Great Pyr or Newfie? What color us your dog? I really hope you have joined some forums, lusts and/or groups. You don't just jump into raw feeding.

 

[Sibe]

There were two sites that I found most helpful (apart from DF!)
This one http://preymodelraw.com/how-to-get-started/

And this one http://www.kaossiberians.com/rawfeeding.html

Both explain how to start, how much to feed, what to feed, when to add other protein sources, when to add organ, etc.

 

[wolfsnaps]

Do not feed the sausage or any seasoned/smoked meats.

Start with chicken. I would do one protein to start and over time, gradually introduce more. Most advise to do organs last. My dogs have iron guts though and took to it pretty quickly.

Cut bones and weight bearing bones (like a cow leg) are dangerous and should not be fed. Other bones are fine.

As far as how much to feed, that depends on the dog. For a growing puppy I believe you can either feed 2-3% of its ideal adult weight or 10% of its current weight. I would start with less that that until your dog has transitioned. Take it from someone who fed too much in the beginning. You are just asking for puke everywhere.

How do you know if your amounts are right? Just look at your dog. Ribs sticking out? Feed a little more. Can't feel the ribs? Cut back a little. It should have a tuckup (the part of the belly that meets the inbetween leg area should slope up. If it doesn't and the belly hangs, the dog needs to lose some weight.

I would caution against too much ground meat. Unless the dog has no teeth or a medical condition, its best to work the jaws and teeth on raw meaty bones. Also, ground will have more bacteria. Which isn't to say that a dog can not handle the bacteria load, but its your puppy and your call

Good luck. If you have any questions, I am willing to help you.

 

[MagicRe]

please read those sites and then read them again.

usually, during transition, and i don't mean to be harsh, the biggest hurdle is user error....i'm one of those people who followed a generic website...the two above were not it.....thank goodness.

and my dogs did exactly what overfed dogs do.....they got liquid stools, cannon butt and colitis...which is nothing more than an irritated colon....not good for an owner...and not good for a dog.

so less is more in the beginning, even with a puppy and a little heavier on bone to help with this new way of digesting....

if you don't know exactly what this pup is going to weigh, then err on the lesser side of potential weight....

so 1.5% of ideal adult weight....is 21.6 ounces, roughly 22 ounces.

that is the starting point i would do.

if puppy gets hunger pukes, increase slowly the amount you feed.

start with chicken, as it is the most nutritionally benign....

but read first...read a lot....and then read some more.

raw is the best way to feed, imho....but it takes some research..and whilst there is more than one way to feed a dog raw.....there are many ways to screw it up...i'm living proof of that one.

but, now it's two years and my dogs are wonderful, even my old lady. so it's worth whatever happens...and there are always people around to help.

 

[wildfire_1982]

Great Pyr or Newfie? What color us your dog? I really hope you have joined some forums, lusts and/or groups. You don't just jump into raw feeding.

she's black with some white. mother is supposedly great pyrenees / father is supposedly golden retriever. since the GP and Newfie resemble each other, it befuddles the vet 'n me. but we are starting to believe the breeder was right, she was one of her puppies from the last litter.

thanks for the sites sibe, appreciate it very much. Wolfsnaps and Magic, Thanks for the info. I do read, read, and re-read info. and i dont do it in 1 sitting / day either.

 

[marsha=whitie]

Make sure that you READ. PMR is a learning process, where you start with the basics and adjust for your dog. Chicken for a month (no organs or liver), then slowly start adding in other meats and organs. Remember, do it SLOWLY though. Cannonbutt is terrible, especially when it comes at 3am...

For pups, you want to spread the 2-3% over a few meals a day. If you start to notice that she's getting chubby, or is losing weight, adjust her feeding amount accordingly. Some dogs require more or less than others.

Join groups to help you out more (yahoo, facebook, etc.) PMR peeps are always willing to help you out.

Good luck! Its so cool watching your dog eat what its supposed to eat.

PS: DEFINITELY look into getting a deep freezer though. It'll come in handy when you find a great deal somewhere and want to stock up!

OH, and STAY AWAY from meats that have added seasonings, or are "enhanced." Sodium and seasonings are definitely not good for dogs, plus they can trigger cannonbutt.

 

[wildfire_1982]

thanks for the info and tips about the seasonings 'n enhanced.

what seasonings would be okay to feed her to give her food some flavor? or is it all a "no-no"? I am a member of a few groups on yahoo and facebook. I read somewhere(unsure where) that one or 2 seasonings is okay occasionally but i dont remember if it was if it was okay or not okay. Argh, too many websites, too many groups, read too soon. I knew I shoulda taken notes!! lol.

I do plan to buy a deep chest freezer when i can catch one on dirt cheap pricing. but it is confirmed, i am moving by end of may, so I may wait until then where I will have the room for it in my new home. ((my big brother hooked me up with the guy he bought his residence from and i am buying 1 from him too)).

 

[Sibe]

I've never used any seasonings, I don't know what's ok. You can get a pan really hot then put the meat in to sear for a few seconds to help make it more attractive.