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hi im new here,i have a 4 month old rottweiler x a/bulldog,she weighs around the 40lb mark and ive just started feeding raw to her over the last few days.
ive been researching about amounts to feed

im feeding a chicken quarter with bone for breakfast,
for lunch a handful of sliced up lambs heart and half a handful of lambs liver and then finally for dinner another chicken quarter.

i will gradually introduce different raw meats as time goes on

does this sound ok for her weight?
please let me know if i can improve on this as im new to this and want her to be as healthy as possible
many thanks
here a little pic of her at 3 and half months

2012-11-03 16.47.57.jpg
 

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Its not always good for dogs because it brings in bacteria that the dogs arent use to and it can make them sick in some cases not always and it can give them the runs.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
hi thanks for the reply,shes not been sick or anything,her poop is normal,not runny or hard.
she was eating james well beloved kibble but didnt seem to want to eat much of this,almost turning her nose up at it.
 

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Normally, when starting out feeding raw, you want to stick to one protein source at a time to give the tummy time to adjust. Puppies do tend to adjust more quickly though :) You just need to make sure you have the general 80/10/10 ratio down (meat/bones/organs). I wouldn't worry too much about the organ meat just now.. it can come afterwards. You will want to try and feed as many different proteins as you can once she has adjusted. I always watch the poops as a guideline for the feeding - too runny, add a bit more boney meals. Too hard/crumbling - need more meaty meals.
 

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The usual suggestion is to feed 2-3% of the pup's ideal adult weight per day. Aren't Rottweilers and American Bulldogs both about 100 pounds or so at maturity? If you expect so [I am guessing] then try to get 2-3 pounds of food in per day. Otherwise feed whatever amount keeps her lean and fit but not skinny. Fine line that.

If chicken quarters are going to be a staple then aim to feed twice as much meat as chicken to attain 10% bone as chicken quarters are about 30% bone. It is fine if you don't quite get there, that would just be exactly 10% bone. See if you can find other lamb organs, brain/spleen/sweetbreads/kidney are a few. After a few days of good poop on chicken and lamb then try out another protein. Chicken and lamb is a very good diet right there, though beef is even better. Other meats have good things to offer as well.
 

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The usual suggestion is to feed 2-3% of the pup's ideal adult weight per day. Aren't Rottweilers and American Bulldogs both about 100 pounds or so at maturity? If you expect so [I am guessing] then try to get 2-3 pounds of food in per day. Otherwise feed whatever amount keeps her lean and fit but not skinny. Fine line that.

If chicken quarters are going to be a staple then aim to feed twice as much meat as chicken to attain 10% bone as chicken quarters are about 30% bone. It is fine if you don't quite get there, that would just be exactly 10% bone. See if you can find other lamb organs, brain/spleen/sweetbreads/kidney are a few. After a few days of good poop on chicken and lamb then try out another protein. Chicken and lamb is a very good diet right there, though beef is even better. Other meats have good things to offer as well.
Some dogs don't do well with only 10% bone. My Bryna needs about 30-40% bone to not get the runs, where my other girl Callie is fine with the minimum 10%.

OP, how are the pups poops? if they are crumbly, or "powder poo's", then lower the bone ratio. Adjust depending on the poops. OR, you could go ahead and adjust the ratios (lower the bone, increase the meat) and see what happens. :)
 

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Sounds like a fine amount. It's tough with crosses, especially if you don't know the weight of the parents. 2% of her ideal weight per day is a good starting guideline. Keep doing what you're doing and if she's getting too thin give her more; too chubby cut back. Since you're just starting raw I think it's fine to have a bit more bone but as you introduce new protein sources you should gradually cut back. The guideline is for 80% meat but as mentioned it's only a guideline and some dogs may need more or less to have good poops. Her poop should NOT be white coming out. Solid and firm, but not hard. I'd do one bone meal and one meat meal, with organ added to either or both. Until 6 months old she should be fed 3x a day, so a mixmatch of whatever for lunch. At 6 months old she can go to 2xa day, and at a year+ you can go to once a day if you want.
 

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Its not always good for dogs because it brings in bacteria that the dogs arent use to and it can make them sick in some cases not always and it can give them the runs.
Please do some research. Kibble has salmonella and e. coli and such too, along with aflatoxins from grains and god knows what else. Dogs and cats naturally have salmonella in their GI tract. Yes raw can give them the runs when switching, but many kibbles can do that too and pets have constant diarrhea on kibble. If a raw fed dog has the runs there are many things you can do. Make sure the meat is not enhanced, the sodium content should be less than 100mg per 4 oz serving. Cut back on fat/skin. Make sure you're not overfeeding or feeding too much in one meal. Don't feed large quantities of organ, especially if the dog is new to raw. Up the bone content. Give 12-24 hours of digestive rest (no food or treats). There's nothing you can really do with kibble but try a different brand or give medications.
 

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Too much calcium isn't a good thing, it binds zinc. If zinc isn't available then skin health can be compromised. In large breed pups it causes the bones to grow rapidly which causes health issues later in life. My dog probably gets more than 10% bone too but 10% is all that is required for nutrition and that is why it is the goal. If my dog needed that much bone then I would probably be adjusting the diet to try to figure out something that works without feeding 30-40% bone for extended periods of time.
 

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Too much calcium isn't a good thing, it binds zinc. If zinc isn't available then skin health can be compromised. In large breed pups it causes the bones to grow rapidly which causes health issues later in life. My dog probably gets more than 10% bone too but 10% is all that is required for nutrition and that is why it is the goal. If my dog needed that much bone then I would probably be adjusting the diet to try to figure out something that works without feeding 30-40% bone for extended periods of time.
Any suggestions to firm up poop without the bone? We have tried trimming meats, and feeding lean meats along with the minimum bone and haven't had any success.
 

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I would try feeding less overall in case the gut is overwhelmed. Sassy taught me that just because you eat more doesn't mean you get fat, you might just poop the excess right back out. And in your dog's case the excess might be firmed up by the bone.

You could try feeding a couple meals a day for the same reason. Sassy taught me that lesson too. Her gut couldn't hold 1000 calories of food if fed 3x a day but could if fed 4x a day.

You could try feeding one protein at a time for a couple weeks to see if there is some sort of intolerance to one of the meats fed that for some odd reason shows up as needing more bone.

It could be she happens to need some vegetable fiber. Try adding that canned pumpkin to her food with a bit less bone and see what happens.

Out there but maybe eating whole prey would help. The fur does firm the poop.

Tendons and tripe and other collagen rich tissues firm poop too but they are high in calcium and I count them as small bone same as those chicken feet and fish.
 

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I would try feeding less overall in case the gut is overwhelmed. Sassy taught me that just because you eat more doesn't mean you get fat, you might just poop the excess right back out. And in your dog's case the excess might be firmed up by the bone.

You could try feeding a couple meals a day for the same reason. Sassy taught me that lesson too. Her gut couldn't hold 1000 calories of food if fed 3x a day but could if fed 4x a day.

You could try feeding one protein at a time for a couple weeks to see if there is some sort of intolerance to one of the meats fed that for some odd reason shows up as needing more bone.

It could be she happens to need some vegetable fiber. Try adding that canned pumpkin to her food with a bit less bone and see what happens.

Out there but maybe eating whole prey would help. The fur does firm the poop.

Tendons and tripe and other collagen rich tissues firm poop too but they are high in calcium and I count them as small bone same as those chicken feet and fish.
I think what we are going to do is cut out the bone/organ meal and just spread it throughout the week. That will cut out the extra bone and increase the overall meat/organ ratio while cutting back on the bone, since she usually gets a chicken back with organs. There is also no way that I can feed my dog 4x's a day. I work 10-12 hour shifts, 4-5 days/week, and my SO doesn't really like to feed her. I should be able to do two times/day.


She really doesn't poop much at all. My cats lay bigger turds than she does (they are still kibble fed) and she only goes once every 2 days or so. I also want to stay away from anything plant related. Nothing against it, I just want to avoid it. We also live in a small 2 bedroom apartment, so whole prey is out (although I wish we could feed that way.)

Thanks for the input!
 

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Gosh, that is Sassy's history! She was eating nearly twice the calories she did on kibble plus that was all the water she would take in for the whole day. The total volume of her meals was maybe 1-1.5 quarts. Amazing that divided 3x that was impossible but 4x was just fine.

Normal dogs need one or two meals a day. If the dog doesn't do well on one meal then try two, that's all. I feed Max once a day as he tends to poop once per meal and back when he started raw the bony meal's poop would be firm and the meat meal's poop would be soft which was annoying. Fed once a day he poops once a day and it is fine if I haven't overdone something or another - still fighting the best buddy/not enough food thing. As he ages he might need to be fed twice a day and I might need to feed bone and organ daily again.

What does a week's worth of meals look like? Could try the bit of bone bit of organ daily thing for a while.

I don't want to feed plant stuff either but if you cannot figure it out it could be healthier than overfeeding bone.
 

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Gosh, that is Sassy's history! She was eating nearly twice the calories she did on kibble plus that was all the water she would take in for the whole day. The total volume of her meals was maybe 1-1.5 quarts. Amazing that divided 3x that was impossible but 4x was just fine.

Normal dogs need one or two meals a day. If the dog doesn't do well on one meal then try two, that's all. I feed Max once a day as he tends to poop once per meal and back when he started raw the bony meal's poop would be firm and the meat meal's poop would be soft which was annoying. Fed once a day he poops once a day and it is fine if I haven't overdone something or another - still fighting the best buddy/not enough food thing. As he ages he might need to be fed twice a day and I might need to feed bone and organ daily again.

What does a week's worth of meals look like? Could try the bit of bone bit of organ daily thing for a while.

I don't want to feed plant stuff either but if you cannot figure it out it could be healthier than overfeeding bone.


Well, last night we ran out of bone and it was too late to go get some quarters, so she just had two hearts. Usually that would cause the runs, but not this time! She still hasn't pooped today, so I think we are in the clear, and are going to be able to lessen the bone safely. :)

Before last night, her week looked something like 1-2 pork hearts and one quarter every day, sometimes with a bit of liver and a kidney as a snack at some point during the week. BUT, since we were forced to go boneless last night we will cut out the quarters a couple days a week and only feed them with organs.
 

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What about supplements like probiotic and digestive enzymes? How do you guys feel about the value of tripe, with the digesting vegetation and bacterial content that most wild animals consume first on prey...
I personally feel tripe is overrated. It's great variety and there's no reason to exclude it, but I feel it's glorified beyond what it should be. I copied this recently to another thread, from "Chris O" in a raw feeding group.
The nutrients in the tripe tissue can be identified by looking up beef tripe, raw on the USDA database. Protein is lower, phos is lower, cal is higher than flesh. However the numbers aren't enough to be considered a good diet. Even if there is a perfect balance between phos and cal, there's only a little bit of it.

The nutrients in the digesta do nothing (as in NOTHING) to nourish a carnviore. The nutrients are there for the cow, done and done. The probiotics may be wowza for cows, but by the time the dog gets them, the dog's stomach has pretty much shot 'em dead, all of them.

I assembled this information back in 2010 for the Yahoo rawfeeding group, perhaps it might be useful--LONG:
*****
Upon doing some pretty tedious reading, I think the answer really is "does not
apply".

1. Most of the bacteria in a cow's rumen digest grass, cellulose. There are a
variety of bacteria and they each have a cellulose-based job to do. The good
bacteria in a cow do not digest meat and bones. Different critters, different
bacteria. The bacteria in green tripe will digest the green, but not the tripe,
and will not be of value in a dog's stomach.

2. Most are cow digestive bacteria are anaerobic and die when exposed to
oxygen. Which pretty much wipes out the population when tripe is processsed.

3. Cow digestive enzymes are produced by cow specific bacteria to digest
cellulose. Cow enzymes don't digest meat, they digest cellulose.

4. Bacteria introduced into a dog's GI tract have to compete against already
established, environmentally-adapted colonies. In most cases the new bacteria
die off. The more closely related the new strain is to the established strain,
the greaters its chances of survival. But since cows digest cellulose and dogs
digest meat, there's little chance for the cow strain to set up shop amid all
those established dog-specific strains.

I think the value of green tripe is its aroma which may encourage sick or old or
picky dogs to eat. The stomach tissue is nutritious, as would be any raw meat;
and the phos level is low, which can be helpful when feeding a dog in renal
failure.

The rest--the bacteria and enzymes stuff? Romance and marketing.

References:

"3) Any bacteria that are introduced into the GI tract whether anally or orally,
as you refer to in your second question, will have to compete against already
established bacterial colonies. The GI tract (especially large intestine)
contain large populations of bacteria. These bacteria have already adapted to
their specific environment and studies have shown that it is very difficult for
newly introduced bacteria to compete against already established bacteria and in
most cases the newly introduced bacteria lose and die off. The more closely
related the introduced species is to normal flora the better chance for
survival."
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...7969.Mi.r.html

"Cows can ferment (and break down) three types of products: starches, sugars,
and cellulose. We've already talked about a cow's normal diet being based almost
completely on the cellulose. The corn is made up of starches, though, which
undergo a different metabolic process (break down process) than cellulose. This
process occurs much more quickly, which makes sense, since cellulose is a more
complex structure. Each pathway for breaking down this structures uses unique
bacteria. That is to say, there are bacteria for cellulose, bacteria for
starches, and bacteria for sugars. Whichever one of these bacteria gets fed
enough (ie, their food source is the predominant one coming in) gets to
reproduce more. Normally, cellulose break down takes long enough that these
bacteria can't reproduce too fast and overwhelm the other types. But starch
break down happens very fast. And these bacteria reproduce very fast. Which
means on a corn diet, these starch bacteria quickly overwhelm all the other
types."
http://tolivetolaughtolove.blogspot....at-is-bad.html

"Cows' guts (their digestive tracts, or intestines) are packed with microscopic
organisms: bacteria, fungi, and single-celled animals called protozoa. They
aren't alone in this - all animals carry a huge load of bacteria - but the
microbes that live in one special gut compartment in cows (and other ruminants)
are special: they digest cellulose. This makes a whole new energy source
available to the cow. There's a lot of energy in cellulose, but most animals are
simply unable to digest it because they don't have the necessary enzymes. That's
where the microbes come in."
http://sci.waikato.ac.nz/farm/content/microbiology.html

Chris O
 

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Sassy had kidney failure and was on a monster dose of probiotic. When she was off it I never saw any change in her poop. When she got an upset gut I saw the exact same recovery with my super lean chicken and rice as I did with the vet's prescribed antibiotic and probiotic. My dogs seem to have generally healthy guts and don't seem to need extra bacteria.

Max sure loves tripe and he eats all of the digestive tracts of his whole prey items minus the actual contents which he shakes out. Whole prey is an outside meal around here! As part of his diet he is eating a ground mix that includes stomach grass and loves it. His poop is about 2x the usual size after those meals so I think it is pretty much just going straight through.

I like feeding tripe as part of the prey model but I do try to stick to something close to the actual amount IN a prey animal, maybe 10-15% of the whole animal.

Up to you though, I am sure some dogs do terrible eating any tripe and some dogs thrive on a diet with 50% tripe. Just have to try it to see how it goes.
 

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I've fed llama stomach (semi-digested grass/hay included) and my dog loved it. I fed a whole rabbit, and the only part they didn't eat was the stomach. When I feed whole chickens, they usually don't eat the stomach but sometimes do.
 
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