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I saw the video of the live skinning before. It's really disgusting. I think they do it this way because it's efficient. I'm guessing that quality of the fur is not their priority, they want quantity.

The video ends with the skinned racoons still alive and struggling to turn around and lick their wounds. The skins were still moving in the other heap.

I know it's a little graphic but just want to share the extent of horror... I don't know anything about PETA or what animals rights movements there are... it's just sad to see these animals skinned this way when there can be a way of doing it with less pain.

Oh and did you guys see the one where a lady roasted a puppy alive by the roadside???? Ridiculous... but true. I've nothing against eating dogs (as long as I'm not the one eating it), but roasting alive... ???
 

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I saw the video of the live skinning before. It's really disgusting. I think they do it this way because it's efficient.
It's actually the opposite. A dead animal is skinned faster and more safely than one that is attacking the person skinning it while bleeding all over them and slipping around. Since you watched the video, than you saw how hard it was for the people to do anything with the animals. It's not difficult to quickly kill them, it actually requires more effort NOT to. Why would someone take MORE effort and risk and time to get a WORSE product when they can instantly make it easy and fast to get a better one? Explain that logic to me.

The only way that AR groups get away with this kind of sensationalism is because most of society nowadays have no knowledge of how farming, hunting, etc. is supposed to work and will believe any wild accusation about them. If you read my links to the statements made by both the U.S. and Chinese Fur Industry to this video (and the links showing a pattern of faked 'snuff films' used by ARs for publicity) you'd see that nobody who actually raises animals for fur accepts this kind of behavior as normal, and that it defies all common sense.
 

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Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
No one said you should think of *skinning animals alive* as culturally relative. In fact, Pai mentioned more than once that it is definitely wrong to do that in any circumstance. The point she was making was that you shouldn't assume because one incident of abuse happened, that it is the norm, or that such practices are indeed deemed acceptable by mainstream Chinese culture. Doing so without further information is IMO ethnocentric, racist and wrong. People do some pretty crappy stuff to animals here for just as insane of reasons, yet no one here is going to suggest that most Americans think it's ok. Quite the contrary.

What *should be* deemed as culturally relative is what specific animals a culture deems food or pets or sacred, etc. Because eating pigs and cows isn't really all that different from eating dogs and cats if you think about it.

And this is off topic and you don't have to respond. But I just wanted to add that I find it pretty offensive to say someone feeling so guilty about their actions that they consider suicide is taking the easy way out. (Rhetorically) what would you have them do? Not feel bad? Resume living a normal happy life despite the horrible things they caused?
I did take my comments back as I realize it was presumptuous of me to assume China was in support of these evil acts. I would not deem this less cruel if cows or chickens were treated in the same manner. I no longer eat pork because I've seen what goes on in factories that process pork products. I know it's stupid but I am guilty of the out of sight out of mind thinking.

As for the guy committing suicide, sorry I stand by my comments. He got out easy by taking his life and not taking full responsibility for his actions. So what else would you have him do? Get a year's worth of meat and spa treatments? He didn't have to face those whose pets were killed by his shortsightedness and greed. He didn't have to face the parents of the babies who were killed by his shortsightedness and greed. What he did was cowardly and selfish. He didn't take any responsibility for anything; as far as I'm concerned, he was a greedy, shortsighted, evil coward. I'm sure he's met his "maker" who is the only one who should judge him but there are actually some criminals who take responsibility for their actions and yet never are "forgiven" by the public. He should have gone through whatever the legal system would have put him through, convicted and served the sentence given to him by the legal system. What then, would you think if the legal system allowed him to get away with it? Or granted him a year's probation? People still think Michael Vick should have had a longer or more severe sentence yet he's served his time in jail. At least he didn't go kill himself so he didn't have to face a judge and jury. I don't like what Vick did and I'm so glad that some of the dogs have found a much better life but he did serve his time. The melamine guy hurt a lot of pets and people and escaped.

As for Pai, again, I'm sorry for my comments. They were shortsighted and a knee-jerk reaction to the cruelty of these dogs being skinned alive. They were not based on the fact that the acts were being done to dogs as I would have deemed it just as cruel if done to any other animal. My error was in assuming that China condones this kind of thing based on the melamine fiasco. I do understand that other cultures, like the filipino culture (I am half filipino), eat dogs or cats which we in North America keep as pets. I think any cruelty to animals is well, cruel. I'm not saying our standards are any better and I didn't know about the progress that China is making so i apologize for my ignorance on that matter as well. Humans , whether white, black, Chinese, Austrailian or Canadian, do enough cruelty to one another they don't need to do it to animals.

So then, if PETA claims this video is from China but won't reveal its source, then is there not any type of legislation which would disallow this type of slander? Can PETA not be charged with something unless they provide proof that this happened in China? And if animals are being skinned alive for stupid boots, and if PETA feels so strongly about this, are they doing any investigation going on to find out where these people are operating and put a stop to it?
 

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I haven't watched the video (and I do not intend to) but anyone who thinks it's quicker and more efficient to skin an animal alive is nuts... Why risk getting all beat up and have to fight with the animal, and end up ruining your product, when it takes just a second to kill the animal and a minute or two to skin a small dead animal. I don't know why the people in the video would skin those raccoon dogs alive, maybe they are just mean, evil people. But I honestly don't think that all of the people over in China are mean and evil just for the hell of it, especially if they have no reason to be.
 

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I agree. Most of us would be horrified by what goes into the making of our favorite products. If you don't like this video, then I suggest you stop eating meat and wearing designer clothes as well.
Okay... but there are plenty of humane sources of animal products to buy and support. I don't get how "people dislike torturing and skinning raccoon dogs alive" = "never eating meat or wearing leather/fur again." There's quite a bit of a difference between skinning an animal alive and a free range chicken who was slaughtered quickly and humanely, or rabbit pelts purchased from a local farmer. Not saying that there aren't horrendous and cruel acts committed in farms here in the US and Canada (there certainly are!) but not all animal products have to come from those sources. You don't have to be okay with cruelty if you purchase and use animal products, and likewise you don't have to be a vegan if you aren't okay with cruelty.
 

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Yep it does look faster than killing the animal... 10 minutes and they are done. The animal can't struggle cos they are hanging from the hind legs and are fighting against gravity. You have to see it to believe it. It is unbelievable. It is scary.

When I first saw it I was very traumatised for some time...

As for the blood on the fur they are just not bothered by it... maybe they're using it to make cheap fakes just like someone mentioned.

I'm not trying to make anyone not buy fur or condemn designers who use fur. I'm just sharing what I saw in this particular video. So please don't anyone be offended.:wave:
 

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Yep it does look faster than killing the animal... 10 minutes and they are done. The animal can't struggle cos they are hanging from the hind legs and are fighting against gravity. You have to see it to believe it. It is unbelievable. It is scary.

When I first saw it I was very traumatised for some time...

As for the blood on the fur they are just not bothered by it... maybe they're using it to make cheap fakes just like someone mentioned.

I'm not trying to make anyone not buy fur or condemn designers who use fur. I'm just sharing what I saw in this particular video. So please don't anyone be offended.:wave:
So many things wrong with this post. Please explain how killing the animal first would take more time. Also, please explain why it's ok to get blood on the pelt of a cheap knock-off product...just because it isn't a designer item, it's ok to have blood splattered all over it? To me that's kind of insane logic. :/
 

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I did not watch the video. I am not going to watch the video. I could not watch the video. I would have nightmares for the rest of my life. IMO..............if they HAVE to have the dang furs........humanely dispose of the poor animal first! And I do not believe in the fur trade or farming for furs. I know a lot of stuff happens out there and some products we use are included I am sure....................but I will never buy into these actions or purchase real fur! Those poor creatures! All IMO.
 

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Yep it does look faster than killing the animal... 10 minutes and they are done. The animal can't struggle cos they are hanging from the hind legs and are fighting against gravity. You have to see it to believe it. It is unbelievable. It is scary.

When I first saw it I was very traumatised for some time...

As for the blood on the fur they are just not bothered by it... maybe they're using it to make cheap fakes just like someone mentioned.

I'm not trying to make anyone not buy fur or condemn designers who use fur. I'm just sharing what I saw in this particular video. So please don't anyone be offended.:wave:
Are you comparing this to how long it takes for someone to kill then skin an animal? Or are you just guessing that it would take longer to kill it first? Because 10 minutes seems like quite a long while especially if you're trying to work as efficiently as possible and keep costs down. I have absolutely no experience with raccoon dogs, but I know that it takes just a second to kill a rabbit, and then you can skin it in one minute.

Also, just curious, because I haven't seen the video, but I have seen some Peta "shock" videos about how rabbits are processed in China. In the video it shows rabbits hung up and their throats being slit and then bleeding out while the narrator says something like "Look at how the rabbits are kicking and twitching, they're still alive and conscious through this whole process!" Now, the throat slitting method is not the most humane method of slaughtering, but when the rabbits' throats are slit, the sudden drop in blood pressure causes them to become unconscious almost immediately. Blood loss causes them to die in about a minute or two, and they are unconscious the entire time. The twitching and kicking only starts AFTER the rabbit has died, this is just nerves firing, it's not a sign of life. I can see how someone would think that a rabbit hanging there twitching is still alive, and maybe they would consider THAT to be being "skinned alive," but that's false, the rabbit is dead. The throat slitting method is not the best method out there, but it's a certainly a far cry from being skinned alive. Is THIS what we're seeing in the raccoon dog video? Are the raccoon dogs moving and kicking around because of those death twitches, and just being mistaken for being alive, or are they ACTUALLY being skinned alive? Peta is certainly not above spreading hyperbole and false information to people who don't know any better, just to make it seem worse than it actually is.
 

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Seriously, I can't trim some of my cats' claws. They wiggle and kick and fight and I just can't do it. And they're tame, and nails trims don't hurt! Raccoon dogs are not tame (I did know a few people who had tamed their neighborhood tanuki to take food from their hand, but they aren't pets). And I can't imagine anyone managing to SKIN a conscious animal. I haven't watched the video (and won't), but I wonder if the animals are drugged or something (if it's not just death twitches). Plus, I think most skinners prefer to wait until the dead animal has gone stiff. Makes it easier to pull the skin off. So I just can't believe that skinning animals alive is done regularly, by anybody.

I don't approve of killing animals only for their skins, but I also don't approve of being manipulated by shock videos.
 

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I've been to a wild life rehab center a few times. They had about a million raccoon babies that were found abandoned. They did NOT just sit there to be handled.
To be fair, raccoon dogs aren't related to raccoons. They're canids, also somewhat related to foxes. But still the same concept. Even fur farm dogs aren't going to let you skin them alive without a fight.
 

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Also, just curious, because I haven't seen the video, but I have seen some Peta "shock" videos about how rabbits are processed in China. In the video it shows rabbits hung up and their throats being slit and then bleeding out while the narrator says something like "Look at how the rabbits are kicking and twitching, they're still alive and conscious through this whole process!" Now, the throat slitting method is not the most humane method of slaughtering, but when the rabbits' throats are slit, the sudden drop in blood pressure causes them to become unconscious almost immediately. Blood loss causes them to die in about a minute or two, and they are unconscious the entire time. The twitching and kicking only starts AFTER the rabbit has died, this is just nerves firing, it's not a sign of life.
I actually did some research into animal slaughtering practices for that very reason, and most people would be surprised how much an animal that is killed via the Captive Bolt method (which is scientifically proven to be the quickest, painfree, and most humane method of killing livestock) moves and spasms even after its clinically brain-dead. The brain, having been basically scrambled, misfires for several moments after death. That's just another example of AR groups using the average suburban-ite's ignorance of humane slaughter and farming practices to manipulate an emotional response (and donation of money). It's a sad fact that too many people are so isolated from the reality of where meat and fur comes from that they can be tricked to believing completely off-the-wall accusations easily.

But in reply to Nargle, yes the animals videotaped are being skinned alive. In normal fur-farming practice, an animal is killed and bled completely dry before it's skinned. Since the AR groups responsible refused to give any details about where these clips were filmed and by whom, it's really impossible to prosecute them. The common theory is, that the people videotaped were poor rural Chinese who were probably offered a nice sum of money to skin the animals alive. A similar case was video taken in the 1970s of a seal hunter who butchered alive a baby seal, but later on the man admitted in court that he had been paid by a film crew to do so. Regardless, that footage is still used today by some AR groups who claim it's normal for seal hunters to do this (regardless that it's been illegal to kill baby seals for almost 30 years now). At least in the case of the seal hunters in Canada, those people are not very wealthy and don't have the resources to fight concentrated propaganda campaigns that are carried out by millionaire AR groups.
 

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It's actually the opposite. A dead animal is skinned faster and more safely than one that is attacking the person skinning it while bleeding all over them and slipping around. Since you watched the video, than you saw how hard it was for the people to do anything with the animals. It's not difficult to quickly kill them, it actually requires more effort NOT to. Why would someone take MORE effort and risk and time to get a WORSE product when they can instantly make it easy and fast to get a better one? Explain that logic to me.

The only way that AR groups get away with this kind of sensationalism is because most of society nowadays have no knowledge of how farming, hunting, etc. is supposed to work and will believe any wild accusation about them. If you read my links to the statements made by both the U.S. and Chinese Fur Industry to this video (and the links showing a pattern of faked 'snuff films' used by ARs for publicity) you'd see that nobody who actually raises animals for fur accepts this kind of behavior as normal, and that it defies all common sense.
I suspect the guys manning the video cameras slipped them some money to make it look extra brutal.
 

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Wow, now wouldn't that be ironic... "Animal rights" activists paying someone to torture animals...
That's what happens when the end justifies the means. There's no doubt in my mind that's what happened here, because people who make a living doing stuff like this learn how to be as efficient as possible and as others have stated it flies in the face of all logic to put in the time and effort to try to skin an animal alive for the fur.
 

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Wow, now wouldn't that be ironic... "Animal rights" activists paying someone to torture animals...
To play Devil's Advocate (though I don't put lying past most AR groups), there could just be sadistic freelancers out there who know that certain organizations will pay lots of money for shocking 'animal abuse' footage that supports their agenda, and the filmers could just be pandering to that, while the AR groups are so blinded by their own bias that they don't question the images because they justify their pre-set belief system. A lot of AR people are just as ignorant about nature, biology, and farming (if not more so) than the people they solicit donations from.
 

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I live in China (Beijing) and can't really comment with any true knowledge on the contents of this thread.

Bad stuff does happen in China, just like everywhere else. China does get demonized for things that are well-deserved and for things that really aren't deserved and tend to get sensationalized in the media.

I will say however, that as a dog owner in China and as one who socializes with fellow Chinese dog owners, that the Chinese people who I regularly meet with our dogs and have dog-based conversations with, as our dogs play together, seem to love their dog or dogs, plural, every bit as much as I love mine. They care well for them, socialize them carefully and do a good job of training them - with positive training methods.

The bad stuff - and I know it does exist - exists mainly in the outer, more rural provinces, as far as I can tell. With the poorer and more uneducated sorts who are having to grasp for a living, with some practices that are unpalatable to the more advantaged of us.
 
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