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Discussion Starter #1
http://blog.fashionism.ca/

I don't know if the above url will work but a piece speaks about how people in China grab these raccoon dogs, slam them to the ground, hold them down by the neck with their feet, and skin them alive so that they can make fake Ugg boots. Then they just throw these skinned dogs on a pile of dying and suffering dogs. Apparently, there's a video..oh god, I didn't see it, coudn't bear to. I am so sick of hearing these stories. I know it's reality and all, but I'm the kind of person who watches Braveheart and worries about the horses getting hurt. People can be stupid enough hurting each other; why do they have to hurt innocent animals? We already take enough of their habitat and eat them, why this cruelty for money? And for fake Uggly boots? The real ones are ugly enough. How can these people hear these dogs cry and sleep at night? They should be skinned alive and their skin used to make my dog's and cats' beds. I am just shivering in disgust.
 

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That is awful. The video had me in tears. Americans need to boycott products from China until they agree to stop. That will get their attention.
 

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I do not condone killing for fur but can't they just do it in a more humane way? Why does it have to be alive through that?

It's one of those things I truly did not get in the fashion industry when I worked in it. It's one thing if you used all of the animal, but there's no respect or true value in what you're taking when you just take what you want.

I do own fur, but they are pieces that were made from animals hunted and used in their entirety. We hunted rabbits one season and I took the pelt for a neck warmer, ate the rabbit, gave the grounded meaty bones and organs to my dog. I would never buy a fur coat.
 

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I'm not so sure they do that on a regular basis. Those raccoon dogs aren't tame, and I would think it would be easier to kill or at least stun them before skinning them. They might have just been hamming it up for the cameras. But even so, it is sad :(.
 

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The unfortunate thing is I don't think this is yet illegal in China, I am not sure their harsher laws that were in talks have been put into place. They do the same thing with domestic dogs, except for food. I have seen the horrible process I don't need to see it again, I had nightmares after puking for a good few minutes.

I don't support the fur trade at all, I hate fur, it's disgusting.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I have no doubt, after China poisoned hundreds of cats and dogs in2007 and infants soon after that, that these activities, among other horrendous ones, are done.to save.money. I'm not one to stereotype but China has proven over and over.that they do not have much regard for human or animal life. I'm just sickened. Maybe this.is a knee- jerk reaction and I'm looking at this.issue too simply. The Chinese kill bears for their gall bladders too. I can't imagine what these dogd, wild or not, went through. This is going to haunt me.
 

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I have no doubt, after China poisoned hundreds of cats and dogs in2007 and infants soon after that, that these activities, among other horrendous ones, are done.to save.money. I'm not one to stereotype but China has proven over and over.that they do not have much regard for human or animal life. I'm just sickened. Maybe this.is a knee- jerk reaction and I'm looking at this.issue too simply. The Chinese kill bears for their gall bladders too. I can't imagine what these dogd, wild or not, went through. This is going to haunt me.
Yeah, things are pretty bleak there. Between all the outsourcing and the rise in standard of living, they're going through something like our Industrial Revolution and living things are going to pay the price (the environment, animals and people). But like ThoseWordsAtBest said, boycotting things from China would mean you might as well throw out half the things you own, broadly speaking. If you're really passionate about this, you can try directly contacting the clothing manufacturers here that sell fur from China. You can maybe start a petition against those lines. I know a few companies (J.Crew?) took fur clothing off their shelves because people spoke up!

As an aside, if you buy meat from the supermarket you're supporting the act of slitting, skinning, and gutting cows, hogs and chickens while they're still alive. The way our food/healthcare system is set up today makes it so that our children have shorter average lifespans than their parents... There is not much regard for human or animal rights here either, just on the surface there seems to be.
 

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I have no doubt, after China poisoned hundreds of cats and dogs in2007 and infants soon after that, that these activities, among other horrendous ones, are done.to save.money. I'm not one to stereotype but China has proven over and over.that they do not have much regard for human or animal life. I'm just sickened. Maybe this.is a knee- jerk reaction and I'm looking at this.issue too simply. The Chinese kill bears for their gall bladders too. I can't imagine what these dogd, wild or not, went through. This is going to haunt me.
I heard Canadians club baby seals to death. Generalizing is generalizing.
 

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I remember when I was a kid we went to a store in the mall - my mom, sister & myself. They had some of the weirdest fur coats I'd ever seen. Now we hunt & eat a lot of game animals in my family (& we're not an unusual family where I'm from). But the coats gave me the creeps. After a little while curiosity got the best of us & we read the tags. Somem company had taken it upon themselves to use dog hides. We were looking at poodle, schnauzer, etc... My mother asked some questions & the answers weren't good. If an animal's going to be euthanized (maybe from illness or injury) we could understand the use of its hide or if the animal came from a country where they ate dog... but that wasn't the case. These dogs were taken & used just for their beautiful hides. We decided mutually to stop visiting the mall until the dog coats were no longer sold in there. Three months later they shut down. What they thought would start a hot trend basically put a thriving store in the crapper. Plenty of jokes get made about rednecks but we don't want ol Duke ending up as somebody's coat!

I hadn't seen another dog hide coat since then.

If I'm going to buy something... I look for American made first. If we don't make it I look to where it can be gotten from & I choose from there. There are a good many things made in China that I've simply decided I don't really need that badly.

I'm pretty open minded about cultural differences but skinning an animal alive pretty much closes my mind right back up to a place of intolerance. I'm a hunter. I see it my responsibility to dispatch any animal as humanely as possible. Someone else mentioned buying meat at the grocery store meaning you're buying animals skinned alive. Don't know what kind of scary plant you've been in but I live where there's a turkey processing plant, know people who've worked in chicken, pork, & beef processing plants. The animals - after inspection - go through a kill line first. Dead.. then processing.
 

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I have no doubt, after China poisoned hundreds of cats and dogs in2007 and infants soon after that, that these activities, among other horrendous ones, are done.to save.money. I'm not one to stereotype but China has proven over and over.that they do not have much regard for human or animal life. I'm just sickened. Maybe this.is a knee- jerk reaction and I'm looking at this.issue too simply. The Chinese kill bears for their gall bladders too. I can't imagine what these dogd, wild or not, went through. This is going to haunt me.
I once heard it explained that China which is becoming an economic power and really is now, has in a lot of ways mimicked world powers. We view them as having little regard for animals because dogs and cats are used for food there--but they're really just mimicking the treatment of our food animals and they don't have the same emotional attachment to dogs and cats. This, of course, horrifies us, but isn't that a little hypocritical when we don't treat the pigs or cows in our factor farms any better?

I thought it was interesting. It's easy to point fingers at China but we've set the precedent.
 

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Unfortunately, that isn't much different from how american livestock is treated/slaughtered. It's just easier/more comforting to close your eyes to what's going on in your own country while pointing fingers at others.
 

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I have no doubt, after China poisoned hundreds of cats and dogs in2007 and infants soon after that, that these activities, among other horrendous ones, are done.to save.money. I'm not one to stereotype but China has proven over and over.that they do not have much regard for human or animal life. I'm just sickened. Maybe this.is a knee- jerk reaction and I'm looking at this.issue too simply. The Chinese kill bears for their gall bladders too. I can't imagine what these dogd, wild or not, went through. This is going to haunt me.

China didn't poison hundreds of cats and dogs in 2007, ONE disgruntled worker did. I agree with Bones, generalizations can get you into trouble.
 

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Furriers do not skin animals alive, because a struggling, bleeding animal ruins the fur by bleeding on it and ripping it from moving, not to mention it's a hazard to the person handling it. It's a great AR propaganda video, but it's not the first time PETA has exploited an un-typical example of cruelty to try and smear an entire industry. That kind of thing cannot be normal in China, because it's stupid business sense, besides being cruel for no reason. If this behavior was normal, why is it that only ONE PETA VIDEO is the only one that is shown over and over again for 6 years now? Come on people, use your common sense. And how many people who get up in arms over fur happily wear leather and eat meat? Just because an animal is farmed for human use doesn't automatically equate horrific abuse on the part of the farmers. And Raccoon-dogs are related to foxes, not similar at all to domestic dogs. If you actually speak to any farmers (even fur farmers!) the majority are not evil beasts who torture their animals. That kind of belief is AR propaganda. Raising an animal for meat or fur does not automatically equal animal abuse.

I find it also troublesome how often this ridiculous accusation of Chinese people 'skinning animals alive for fur' becomes a focal point for people bashing all of China as being populated by inhuman monsters, which is completely out of line. Yeah, they eat dogs. We eat cows, which to Indians is horrific. We like to make jokes about 'sacred cows' here, but what makes us better than them, from their perspective? There are legitimate cultural differences between us, and just because one culture treats as sacred an animal that another treats as food does not make one 'better' than another. Is it true that in many ways, other countries are not as animal-welfare oriented as the West, yet? Yes, but that is a separate issue. To PETA, however, all animal farming, for any reason, no matter how humane, is slavery and animal abuse. Keep that in mind next time you believe press releases and statements coming from them.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Ok I take my comments and go back to clubbing the.seals hanging outside my igloo. One man poisoned dogs and cats slander who knows how many infants? How was one man able to get melamine into a whole supply of pet food and infant formula? Why was this permitted? Too simple to say one.person was responsible. And no I don't think all China is the same. I have Chinese friends and don't think they skin dogs alive. These.skinners are doing this to make fake uggs, not furriers. They are not out to make quality furs.

Here in Canada we have the freedom to protest seal hunts. I'm not sure if the.people in China have tagged.same freedom. I still think this act is cruel. I'm sorry my comments were offensive.
 

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I still think this act is cruel.
I'm fairly sure no sane person thinks skinning an animal alive ISN'T cruel. That's not the issue here -- it's the accusation by PETA that such practices are routine in the Chinese fur industry --- which is strangely similar to how they claim animal abuse is the norm in EVERY animal-related business (which includes zoos and people keeping pets). People should not just swallow everything they say as gospel truth.

The issue with the Chinese melamine poisoning is the same issue the U.S. had 100 years ago before we passed the Pure Food and Drugs Act -- it's greed and short-sightedness leading someone to adulterate their product in order to sell it for more money (melamine makes the food appear to have a higher protein content). The guy probably didn't even think it was enough to do anything, since he later tried to kill himself out of guilt.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I'm fairly sure no sane person thinks skinning an animal alive ISN'T cruel. That's not the issue here -- it's the accusation by PETA that such practices are routine in the Chinese fur industry --- which is strangely similar to how they claim animal abuse is the norm in EVERY animal-related business (which includes zoos and people keeping pets). People should not just swallow everything they say as gospel truth.

The issue with the Chinese melamine poisoning is the same issue the U.S. had 100 years ago before we passed the Pure Food and Drugs Act -- it's greed and short-sightedness leading someone to adulterate their product in order to sell it for more money (melamine makes the food appear to have a higher protein content). The guy probably didn't even think it was enough to do anything, since he later tried to kill himself out of guilt.
None of us are totally innocent in this because of our own greed and shortsightedness. And my reaction was based on the blatant cruelty of skinning live animals and then leaving them to die in pain. Peta uses.this type of shock value to their advantage. I see your point Pai and realize that I made a shortsighted judgement myself based on my disgust. I agree that the U.S. and Canada are not without guilt but there has been some progress. But we could do better.

I also understand that cultural differences dictate how one culture views animal versus another culture but I, maybe naively, hope that avoiding unnecessary.suffering would be a universal principle. Adopting an ethnocentric view in which we view our culture.being better than another is not desirable yet how can I dismiss the cruelty of this act? Am I supposed to say oh well it's their culture so it's okay? I think there are people who would say this act isn't cruel....they are just animals and they exist for our use....food, clothing, medicine, etc and they don't feel anything. Iff there weren't animal abuse and cruelty wouldn't exist. The guy who killed himself for the melamine fiasco took the easy way out and couldn't even handle his own cruelty. At the sample time, I struggle with myself eating meat. Though I don't eat much, I know that many meat factories are not exactly cruelty-free.

Thanks for the enlightenment...
 

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I also understand that cultural differences dictate how one culture views animal versus another culture but I, maybe naively, hope that avoiding unnecessary.suffering would be a universal principle. Adopting an ethnocentric view in which we view our culture.being better than another is not desirable yet how can I dismiss the cruelty of this act? Am I supposed to say oh well it's their culture so it's okay? I think there are people who would say this act isn't cruel....they are just animals and they exist for our use....food, clothing, medicine, etc and they don't feel anything. Iff there weren't animal abuse and cruelty wouldn't exist. The guy who killed himself for the melamine fiasco took the easy way out and couldn't even handle his own cruelty. At the sample time, I struggle with myself eating meat. Though I don't eat much, I know that many meat factories are not exactly cruelty-free.
No one said you should think of *skinning animals alive* as culturally relative. In fact, Pai mentioned more than once that it is definitely wrong to do that in any circumstance. The point she was making was that you shouldn't assume because one incident of abuse happened, that it is the norm, or that such practices are indeed deemed acceptable by mainstream Chinese culture. Doing so without further information is IMO ethnocentric, racist and wrong. People do some pretty crappy stuff to animals here for just as insane of reasons, yet no one here is going to suggest that most Americans think it's ok. Quite the contrary.

What *should be* deemed as culturally relative is what specific animals a culture deems food or pets or sacred, etc. Because eating pigs and cows isn't really all that different from eating dogs and cats if you think about it.

And this is off topic and you don't have to respond. But I just wanted to add that I find it pretty offensive to say someone feeling so guilty about their actions that they consider suicide is taking the easy way out. (Rhetorically) what would you have them do? Not feel bad? Resume living a normal happy life despite the horrible things they caused?
 

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I also understand that cultural differences dictate how one culture views animal versus another culture but I, maybe naively, hope that avoiding unnecessary.suffering would be a universal principle. Adopting an ethnocentric view in which we view our culture.being better than another is not desirable yet how can I dismiss the cruelty of this act?
Skinning animals alive is not normal cultural practice in China (or in any fur trade), and when that video was originally released (in Switzerland) the Chinese fur commission spoke out in condemnation of such inhumane behavior. And also, despite their asking where the footage was taken in order to prosecute the offenders, the AR groups spreading this story around refused to cooperate. Which should tell you all there is to know about PETA and their cronies' real intentions and ethics -- their only goal is to ruin the reputation of fur farmers and to trick kindhearted animal lovers into giving them money. In their minds the ends (to eliminate all animal use by humans) justifies the means, even if it means lying to people.

My comment about cultural elitism is in response to how people often jump to believe the worst of other cultures just because they eat animals that we see as pets. There are similar myths going around about how the Chinese eat human fetuses, for example, which is similarly built on the whole 'they're immoral monsters' stereotype. When such extreme accusations are made (especially by a group known for being dishonest, like PETA) it's important to take a step back and think logically about the implications of such an accusation before believing it.

And before anyone brings up the stories from the counties in China that mass-killed dogs because of local Rabies epidemics (which is a huge problem in China: thousands of people there die of Rabies each year, only 3% of dogs are vaccinated, and keeping dogs as pets only became common in the 1990s so many people there still see them as vermin), those events led to much public outcry among Chinese citizens and directly led to the drafting of new animal protection legislation so that such behavior would not be considered legal anymore. If that doesn't show that Chinese people have a conscience towards animal abuse, I don't know what would. One of China's main problems is that their economy and technological/education level has grown much faster than their regulatory and legal system, so that a lot of laws and regulations that we take for granted here are still either new over there or not even implemented yet.
 
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