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Discussion Starter #1
I'm a newbie here and I don't want to go pissing on hallowed ground, or someone's personal turf. But, as a retired breeder who has spent a lot of time talking to veterinarians about health issues, I was surprised by some of the things mentioned in the 'finding a good breeder' thread. Have these been thrashed out elsewhere and agreed upon? In particular, I have questions about the scientific basis behind:

1. advocating 12 weeks, as opposed to 8 weeks, as the time to place a puppy with a new home

2. saying that there's harm in breeding a bitch beyond seven years

3. saying that there's harm in having more than three litters from a bitch . . . without commenting on the much more serious consequences of using a popular sire or line-breeding.

There were other things as well . . . but these three seem like enough to take on in one post.
 

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Well I do 12 with my bullies because they are a very slow maturing breed. It gives me more time to evaluate my puppies, not that I couldn't do it in 8 I just like the extra weeks. Also I like my pups to go with 3 sets of shots.
 

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I'm a newbie here and I don't want to go pissing on hallowed ground, or someone's personal turf. But, as a retired breeder who has spent a lot of time talking to veterinarians about health issues, I was surprised by some of the things mentioned in the 'finding a good breeder' thread. Have these been thrashed out elsewhere and agreed upon? In particular, I have questions about the scientific basis behind:

1. advocating 12 weeks, as opposed to 8 weeks, as the time to place a puppy with a new home

2. saying that there's harm in breeding a bitch beyond seven years

3. saying that there's harm in having more than three litters from a bitch . . . without commenting on the much more serious consequences of using a popular sire or line-breeding.

There were other things as well . . . but these three seem like enough to take on in one post.
both of my well bred dogs were purchased at 8 weeks old.

I know a great breeder who bred her 8 year old bitch for her third litter, because she was still in her prime of life both physically and mentally, she is spayed now and still is the right hand working farm dog at 11 years old.


I don't really see the need to have more than three litters out of a bitch from a breed that has a decent sized population in relation to litter size. For instance, there are thousands and thousands of Yorkie litters registered each year with the AKC, even tho the breed is known for small litter sizes there is really no reason to need to breed a bitch more than three times to keep certain genetics going. But in a breed such as the English Toy Spaniel that only have a couple hundred litters registered each year may benefit from breeding a bitch (to several different studs) 4 or 5 times in her life.

Popular sire is a big issue but I'm not sure how you can rate a breeder based on their use of a popular sire in general, they may just be trying to make things better in their breeding program, however I have less of a problem judging those breeders who HAVE popular sires and allow them to produce 100+ litters as there is no need I have ever seen for producing that many puppies out of one dog.
 

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I do not agree with some of those things in the sticky as well. There is nothing wrong with a breeder breeding 2 breeds, if they are knowledgeable in both. Now if a breeder is breeding several breeds, I would beware.

My pup came at 8 weeks, and most Aussies are available at 8 weeks. I see no issues with 8 weeks, as long as the breeder feels the puppy is mature enough to be away from siblings and mom.

There's also one about not needing an appointment because they might be cleaning up real quick.. well even if I had nothing to hide I sure as heck wouldn't want people just showing up at my house.

This forum does not always agree with each other on what makes a good breeder. I have my preferences and others have their own. I wouldn't buy from solely a conformation breeder, and I honestly have nothing against people who breed for pets only if they health test and such. I don't think you are "pissing on hallowed ground". :p
 

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There's also one about not needing an appointment because they might be cleaning up real quick.. well even if I had nothing to hide I sure as heck wouldn't want people just showing up at my house.
Oh my yes! I would not just give my address to random people and tell them stop by anytime you like with only a moments notice! I have a life, I have a job, I do not want strangers walking around my house and property at their own will, especially when I am not home!

There are several forum members here who have been to my house, they all were invited or they asked to come out at least a week ahead of time. Even my good friends on here do not just show up at my house.
 

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Must be a cultural difference. If a good friend shows up at my place, they're welcome anytime. ;) I realize this is not a typical Dutch attitude, but I guess I've been influenced by my Venezuelan friend too much, haha! Of course, if people want to make sure I'm home, they should give me a call.

I think what's 'good breeding practice' is up for personal interpretation, but the stickies function well as rough guidelines. The stickies don't absolve someone of thinking critically about what makes a breeder a good breeder in their eyes.
 

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I think age at when to go depends on the breed. I know of a Yorkie breeder who does not let her pups go before 12 weeks and I understand why. Chihuahuas breeders do the same thing. 8 weeks these guys are just so small. they need that extra 3 weeks to get a little bigger. See way too many hypoglycemic puppies that are toy breeds sold way too early. I never have had a problem with my Chihuahuas. Most of mine were older when I got them anyways.

I would never just drop in to go see someone and I would not want someone just pulling up to the house without calling first. that is just plain rude. Hoarders have a hard time hiding their messes. I have only known one mill breeder who used a different house to meet you at so you did not see all his dogs. He was running a very sneaky operation but he got caught in the end. He had to serve some time and pay a hefty fine along with not owning any dogs for x amount of years.

I think these are just guidelines anyways and not written in stone.
 

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I'm a newbie here and I don't want to go pissing on hallowed ground, or someone's personal turf. But, as a retired breeder who has spent a lot of time talking to veterinarians about health issues, I was surprised by some of the things mentioned in the 'finding a good breeder' thread. Have these been thrashed out elsewhere and agreed upon? In particular, I have questions about the scientific basis behind:

1. advocating 12 weeks, as opposed to 8 weeks, as the time to place a puppy with a new home 12 weeks is nice because puppy gets all that extra socialization with mommy and siblings. 12 weeks is also nice because all their shots are done. That all said, 8 weeks is really the norm for most medium to giant breeds. 8 weeks is when the puppies are generally mature enough to leave. As said, some smaller breed pups do need the extra time with momma dog. I've seen quite a few breeders bump their puppies out of the nest at 9 or 10 weeks. Not quite 12, but getting there.

2. saying that there's harm in breeding a bitch beyond seven years I think this probably depends on the bitch, like Keechak mentioned. But as a rule of thumb, most bitches are probably done around 7. Things can get complicated with an older bitch trying to whelp puppies.

3. saying that there's harm in having more than three litters from a bitch . . . without commenting on the much more serious consequences of using a popular sire or line-breeding. I think this depends on the bitch, again. It's another kind of a rule of thumb thing. Depends on the bitch, the sire, and the intended outcome of the litter.

There were other things as well . . . but these three seem like enough to take on in one post.
Replies in bold. :D
 

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I agree with the going-home age varying by breed. For Newfs (at least in the US - I think it's different in other countries), reputable breeders won't send their pups home with the families until 10 weeks. That's the age that a cardiologist generally checks for hearts issues like SAS, and can differentiate between actual SAS and other things like an innocent murmur or something. So in Newfs, breeders who send their dogs home before 10 weeks (and often without heart checks BY A CARDIOLOGIST) have a red flag.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
The "Finding a Good Breeder" thread may just be guidelines, but, with Views: 57,362, it is THE single most viewed thread in Dog Forums. It is closed, and has only five replies to the first post. It keeps its position in the stickies. So it is set up there as gospel and is in a position to be taken seriously by newcomers to the dog world. I hate to think that excellent breeders are being discounted by puppy buyers because they release pups at 8 weeks or don't allow drop-in visits. There's enough anti-breeder animal rights nonsense going on without having the dog world casting doubts about widespread and/or vet-approved dog breeding practices.

In my experience, 8 wks is normal for placing Labrador pups, and at that age they are robust, curious, and enthusiastic about new surroundings. I often had puppy buyers come back to me saying they expected crying at night, supplied the ticking clock, etc., and the pup ran around happy as Larry, collapsed exhausted, and slept the night with no problems.
 

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Toy breeds are usually rehomed later. I know lots of show breeders also hold onto their dogs longer because they want more time to assess which dogs will be a possible show dog.

Anyway I think it's a good general guide. I definitely do not think it's "set in stone" but it's a good thing to compare most breeders by :)
 

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Toy breeds are usually rehomed later. I know lots of show breeders also hold onto their dogs longer because they want more time to assess which dogs will be a possible show dog.

Anyway I think it's a good general guide. I definitely do not think it's "set in stone" but it's a good thing to compare most breeders by :)
I agree. At the very least it's helpful in ruling out the breeders who are 'right out', and/or make people aware of what to watch out for.

At some point everyone just has to decide what they are and aren't comfortable with.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
p.s. Another problem, which I think most will agree needs correction, is the statement that pups should be registered with the AKC or the CKC. What happened to the UKC, the AIBC, the ABCA, the ABBA . . . and other registries that are growing due to desires to cater to working dogs and disagreement with the AKC? Which CKC? the Canadian Kennel Club or the Continental Kennel Club?
I am used to the ANKC (Australian KC) and was pretty shocked, on moving back to the US, by the crass commercialism of the AKC and their willingness to cooperate with pet shop sales. Breeders that use other registries may do so for good and proper reasons.
 
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