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Discussion Starter #1
On another thread (the one asking if the pup's ears are going to ever stand) I noticed that someone said a puppy can only become a bi-color if both dam and sire carried the bi-color gene. I also asked about Trent's coat pattern/markings and was told he was a bi-color. Now, his dam was a blanket saddle but her sire was a bi-color. However, Trent's sire, Flax, is a black and tan, as well as his sire and dam. I could not find a bi-color in Flax's pedigree.

Can someone help explain this whole genetic coat pattern business to me?

I started wondering about this because I was surfing through pedigreedatabase and looking at the bi-color dogs on Trent's pedigree so I'll have a good idea what he'll look like as he gets older. There were tons of gorgeous dogs!

His great-grandsire


Great-grandsire's son


Pretty bitch


Trent's sire's son
 

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Not sure if your talking about my post when I said in order for a Dog to have Tan points it has to have goten the gene for tan points from both parents. Is that the post you were talking about?

a Black and Tan IS a Bi-color but there are also other types of bi-color so I'm confused as to which one you mean.

insted of saying Bi-color say the specific bi-color you are talking about, (for example black and tan, black and white, red and tan..ect.)
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I really don't know the specifics, but I think it was mentioned that he has cream points?
 

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well my knowledge of color genetics is pritty limited to the Australian Shepherd breed and the colors that they come in.

I've never heard of cream points but your boy Trent looks like a Black and Tan to me
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I thought he looked like a black and tan, too. His chest is more pale, but his legs are a very deep tan. Would you say the dogs I posted are black/tan bi-colors as well?
 

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I always *thought* that a bicolor german shepherd only had the tan on the lower legs and around the anus. They are called black and tans if they have tan markings other places (like the cheeks, chest, upper leg). I could be totally wrong though. I thought, looking at pics, that Trent was a black and tan. That could mean his black will fade on some places, but it also could not.

I found this:
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I'm not sure at all, either. I had thought he was a blanket saddle like his dam, because I didn't know if his parents carried the bi-color gene, and because I am always getting the two patterns mixed up. However, all the "German shepherd experts" I have asked tell me he is a bi-color and remind them of their own bi-colors.

Now by your definition, would you say the first two pictures I posted are bi-colors and the last two black and tans? I wasn't sure if the very last one (Trent's "cousin") was a blanket black and tan or a bi-color.

add: Surfed my bookmarks and here's what I found on an informative GSD website:


"3. Rich Bicolour, Melanistic Bicolour, faded bicolour.
Typically, the bicolour is a black dog with tan points much the same as a doberman. It is in fact the same gene. A very dark one with a strong black mask and much extension of the black may appear to be solid black, with a black undercoat and only some tan shading on the feet. Theoretically, bicolours always show tan around the vent, but I have seen a virtually black dog with just enough tan around the vent (and between the toes) to suspect that it was a bicolour, but not enough to be sure. However, a pale bicolour can look strikingly like a black sable, showing much black over a light grey undercoat, with tan or grey over the nape of the neck and along the harness lines, and black markings on the legs and feet. These dogs have the genetics for fading of the black mantle, and while they can still appear dark to the eye, will produce colour fading.
"

from http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/07_Colour_&_Pigment/Colour_&_Pigment.html
 

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I think by that definition only the 2nd picture is a bicolor. The first one has some tan on the chest and looks like on the head too by the ears. Also the tan goes up farther on the front left leg, so I think those 3 are blanket back black and tans? The 2nd might even be a blanket black and tan if it has tan on the chest, I can't see the chest to see if there is any tan on it. Anyway, so I think trent would be considered a blanket black and tan? I really don't know much about gsd colors/patterns I'm just going by what I heard.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
That's interesting, I never did think these markings would be so tough to distinguish. However, I was on the shawlein website and he seems to look exactly like what she described as a "rich bi-color". I don't know much at all about coloring and markings in general, so I am trying to learn. I think Trent's adorable, but I have people asking me about his markings all the time!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
That's what I've been hoping for, but no Xeph in sight. <.< >.>

Meanwhile, I'll send the breeder a quick e-mail. Can you believe I never bothered to confirm Trent's marking? Then again, that was the last thing on my mind when I picked him up :p
 

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People are still arguing over what a bi color is...color or pattern.

Bi colors in GSDs aren't the same as Aussies Keechak :)

Trent is most likely a "plain old" black and tan.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
:O You were waiting for us to admit we needed you, weren't you Xeph?

Can you let me know what in your mind makes Trent a black and tan blanket rather than a bi-color? I have more people (including the vet) tell me he's a bi-color, but I was convinced he was a black and tan like his dam when I first brought him home. Apparently when it comes to deciding his colors/markings, it's a democracy xD
 

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totaly unrelated but, here are the color terms for aussies

a "Solid" can be any of the following colors without White or tan- Black, Red, Blue Merle, Red Merle

a "Tri color" usually refers to the Black or the Red with both Tan points and white and is never used to describe a Blue or red merle with tan and white.

a "Bi color" usually refers to Black and White, or Red and White can sometimes be used to describe a Blue merle and white or a red merle and white. And even less commonly refers to a Black and Tan, red and tan, blue merle and tan, or red merle and tan.

"Red merle" or "Blue Merle" can also be used to describe a merled dog regardless of weather it has tan points and/or white markings.

The term "Bi-Blue" inregards to a Blue merle with White markings in only used in the Shetland Sheepdog breed and never in the aussie. In an aussie that color would simply be called a Blue Merle

I know that probably totaly bored you out of your mind, But I find it interesting that different breeds have different names for the exact same color.
 

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So I guess this makes Webster a blanket back? Or a sable? LOL


Does that mean after a bath I can call him a wet blanket?
 

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You were waiting for us to admit we needed you, weren't you Xeph?
LOL!

Actually, my laptop died and I had to bite the bullet and buy a wireless card for my desktop.

Honestly, I'd need to see pics of Trent again to be sure :-/ Pencil markings can fade.

I was always taught that tarheels + pencilling + extended black on the front legs = bi color.

I suggest going to the germanshepherds.com forum, as they're having a rather indepth discussion about bi colors right now, and as usual, Chris Wild has great things to say :)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I read through that thread and checked Trent out - no tan behind the ears, he has the penciling down the legs, but what are tarheels? >.< I also read that some people had their GSD's penciling fade after they went into heat, while others had their pups keep the markings as they went into adulthood. Onyx'girl and Aubie tell me he's a bi-color who reminds them very much of their own. I wish I could ask, but for some reason, my laptop still refuses to allow me to post on that forum. It gives me a UBB error message. Frustrating =/ I feel like an addict going cold turkey.

I'll take more pictures of his coat later, meanwhile, here are some pictures of him in case you didn't see them:
(Added more pictures near the end of the thread)
http://www.dogforums.com/8-dog-pictures-forum/51633-some-people-have-teacup.html

http://www.dogforums.com/8-dog-pictures-forum/51291-more-trent-pictures.html

Picture of him + his pedigree.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/593853.html

I took another look and was wondering - does he have penciling down his legs?
 

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Tarheels are exactly what they sound like :) It looks like the dog has stepped in tar and the backs of his hocks were coated in it.

And I take back what I said....looks like he'll be a bi color.

The difference between bi color puppies and black and tans is that black and tans will have solid tan legs, bi colors, like Trent, will have a stripe of black down the front of their legs
 
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