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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I've put a deposit on a hybrid dog. The breeder breeds championship Golden Retrievers and as a hobby also tries to breed mini sized Golden Retrievers using Goldendoodles that have the straight golden hair and golden look but the small size of a mini-toy poodle. She bred a 40lb 75% retriever/ 25% poodle mix to a 14lb 75% poodle/25% retriever mix. Both dogs look much more like a Golden Retriever than a poodle. Pics posted below. She said the adult weight she was shooting for was 35 lbs. Once they were born she said she thought they may be more like 26 lbs.

She had me make my pick of the litter earlier than I was comfortable with, at 5 weeks and the only information I had to go by was a pictures she sent me and she said that they both seemed like they would be 3's on a temperament test (though she couldn't guarantee it until they were 7 weeks old.) There were two males and four females. I wanted a male and she said one male was about a pound smaller than the rest so I decided to go with the other since I didn't want the runt. She said if I didn't pick she would be moving on since I was high on the list and the others wanted to pick.

Now it turns out the one I picked is the largest one in the litter at 8.5 lbs at 7 weeks old (the other male is now the average size of 7 lbs.) I did a search and the average full blooded golden retriever is only one pound more at 7 weeks. Boxers and Airedale Terriers both average 8.5 lbs at 7 weeks and they turn out to be 60 lbs. At 60 lbs you might as well just get a regular retriever, it would be less expensive and less of a hassle and you wouldn't have to worry about poodle genetic defects. It's possible that the pup is taking more after it's Retriever grandparents, but with a dad that is 14 lbs???

I talked to the breeder and she said her theory is that since the mom is a hybrid it has more milk (a study I found confirms this, Scott and Fuller found that cross-bred dogs were superior mothers compared to purebred mothers, producing more milk and giving better care) and the pups are a little bigger than expected because of more nutrition. She said this mother has milk "like you would not believe" and it is almost like it is a singleton pup (only one pup in the litter) which tends to be a little bigger as a pup because of more milk availability. I would be more comfortable with a pup that isn't the largest in the litter but she says the others are spoken for now and the largest in the litter generally only turns out to be about 5 lbs larger than the rest anyway.

What do you guys think? (mom and dad below)
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Pic of the puppy with the other male at 5 weeks and another pic of him with the other male at 7 weeks below. He was 1 lb larger than the other male at 5 weeks and now is 1.5 lbs larger.
 

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What do you guys think?
I think if you buy a dog that is a cross between 2 purebred dogs, there's no way to guarantee anything at all. It's a roll of the dice.

I think that a breeder who would purposely try to mix and match two breeds is gambling with dogs' lives and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

I think if a breeder tried to force me to make any choice that I'm not comfortable with, I would turn and run, not walk, in the opposite direction and never look back.

I'm not sure what kind of response you're looking for (What do I think about what?), and I'd wager I haven't hit upon it, but those are just some of the things I think about the situation you've described.

People are free to do what they want with dogs, but playing mix and match with different breeds is not something I advocate. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I'm not sure what kind of response you're looking for (What do I think about what?), and I'd wager I haven't hit upon it, but those are just some of the things I think about the situation you've described.
Do you think it will turn out to be 60 lbs like most 8.5lb 7 week old pups do, or is it just that he's getting more nutrition and growing faster because of it like a singleton pup does? He doesn't seem fat, but then singleton pups don't get fat either, they just grow. I thought maybe someone with some expertise could help me be more informed about the situation. Will he end up being only 5 lbs larger than the other male although he is almost 20% larger (1.5lbs is 20% of 7lbs) now?

The reason I went this route is because I like everything about Golden Retrievers, I just don't like their size (this is especially true with my wife.) However, if the pup ends up being 60 lbs this negates my reasoning. The mom and dad have been fully tested and come from good bloodlines. The breeder's daughter is the #1 junior show handler in the country. It's not some backyard breeder, they've been breeding for a long time, but the pup may not turn out to be what I wanted either. Which is why I'm asking for some advice here.
 

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No idea. You can't tell these things with mixed breeds. You'll just have to wait and see. It will be somewhere in between a Golden and a Poodle. That's about all we can know for sure.
 

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I think there's absolutely no way to tell, because Hybrid Vigor is an absolute myth, (Mixed breed mothers are no better then purebred mothers, it all comes down to the individual dog) and since he's mixed with two breeds that vary so greatly in size, you'll only know how much if each breed he got when he's fully grown. He could be mostly Poodle, or almost all Golden.

Also, you can't say a 8.5 lb puppy will grow to be 60 lbs. That's just an average of all the dogs in that breed, it doesn't mean that all the puppies were 8.5 lbs and grew up to be 60. There could be a 6 lb puppy that ended up to be 80 lbs, and it's littermate could have started as a 10 lb puppy that grew to be 50 lbs. Plus, many breeds mature differently. It's all a mystery, especially with breeders who don't follow any sort of breed standard. I stopped growing in middle school, and I'm average height, but I have a friend that Sophomore year was shorter then me, and today towers above me like a giant!

I also don't think you chose a very good breeder, but I suppose the deposit has already been payed, and you're stuck with them. I hope at least no matter how your pup turns out, you'll still keep him and love him dearly. I can't understand, though, if size is so important to you, why didn't you just get a golden colored Cocker Spaniel or something?
 

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there is NO WAY the dog in that picture is 14 pounds, more like 40 to 50 pounds. dose this Breeder have a website? We could check and make sure your not getting ripped off.


I URGE People on this forum not to Jump to conclutions with this thread! let us all stay level headed and civil!
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I can't understand, though, if size is so important to you, why didn't you just get a golden colored Cocker Spaniel or something?
Cocker rage, mainly, plus both Golden Retrievers and Poodles are much smarter and more obedient than cockers. I really looked at every breed (Papillons too small, Shelties didn't appeal to us, Poodles too yappy, Corgis and Portuguese Water Dogs too independent, Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier too dumb, etc), and Golden Retrievers are perfect except for the size. This is why people for ages have went and combined breeds to make different ones.

I realize that fans of breeds aren't too high on designer dogs, they undermine the whole concept of a breed. But there are advantages. Most people, especially in the farming community where cows and corn is concerned, believe hybrid vigor is no myth. Recessive genetic defects like hip dysplasia, eye problems, and Addisons (the most common defects) need both parents to carry the gene and two breeds with different genetic predispotitions give you an advantage since both parents are unlikely to carry the same defective recessive genes. Purebreds have been hurt by inbreeding. The problem comes when you start getting to 2nd and 3rd generation crossbreeds like my dog, in which defects from both breeds could be carried.

But this is all beyond the scope of the post. I really just wanted to see if anyone had a better idea than me how large the pups will turn out to be.

there is NO WAY the dog in that picture is 14 pounds, more like 40 to 50 pounds. dose this Breeder have a website? We could check and make sure your not getting ripped off.


I URGE People on this forum not to Jump to conclutions with this thread! let us all stay level headed and civil!
That is a good point about the 14 lb dog now that you mention it.
 

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I am not trying to attack you in any way I just want to make sure for your own credit that you know what a breed is. Do you know what the definition of a breed is?

also mind you I do not think mixes are better than purebreds, or that purebreds are better then mixes. My personal belief is that it all comes down to how the dogs are bred that makes them better or worse.
 

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there is NO WAY the dog in that picture is 14 pounds, more like 40 to 50 pounds. dose this Breeder have a website? We could check and make sure your not getting ripped off.


I URGE People on this forum not to Jump to conclutions with this thread! let us all stay level headed and civil!
Yes that dog is much larger than the breeder told you.. Consider that a cat weighs between 10-15 pounds, and my little Zoey weighs 18. I would guess that the puppy will be a bit bigger than she told you, He should be somewhere between the sizes of his two parents.
 

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Cocker rage, mainly, plus both Golden Retrievers and Poodles are much smarter and more obedient than cockers. I really looked at every breed (Papillons too small, Shelties didn't appeal to us, Poodles too yappy, Corgis and Portuguese Water Dogs too independent, Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier too dumb, etc), and Golden Retrievers are perfect except for the size. This is why people for ages have went and combined breeds to make different ones.

I realize that fans of breeds aren't too high on designer dogs, they undermine the whole concept of a breed. But there are advantages. Most people, especially in the farming community where cows and corn is concerned, believe hybrid vigor is no myth. Recessive genetic defects like hip dysplasia, eye problems, and Addisons (the most common defects) need both parents to carry the gene and two breeds with different genetic predispotitions give you an advantage since both parents are unlikely to carry the same defective recessive genes. Purebreds have been hurt by inbreeding.

But this is all beyond the scope of the post. I really just wanted to see if anyone had a better idea than me how large the pups will turn out to be.



That is a good point about the 14 lb dog now that you mention it.
1, Not all members of the breeds you mentioned will follow the "stereotype." It really all boils down the the individual dog. There are idiot poodles and cool calm Border Collies and Chihuahuas that are quiet as a mouse. That's why it's so important to evaluate the temperaments of all the puppies in a litter before buying, and not going off of size, color, gender, etc.

2, Breeding between two species such as a lion and a tiger can often cause changes, such as increased size, but dogs are all the same species. Breeds are not different species, and you are not creating a "hybrid" by breeding a mutt. All dogs carry similar genes, and if a poodle with hip dysplasia mates with a golden with hip dysplasia, then you better bet those pups have a high risk of developing hip dysplasia themselves, regardless of their "hybrid" (mutt) status. The reason why breeding mutts is so frowned upon, is because the vast majority of people who breed mutts don't care about a breed standard (which was created to insure the breed is fit for it's purpose and doesn't become deformed or skewed) and only breed for profit, leaving important things out like genetic health testing out and checking for good temperaments. Often times designer dog breeders will just keep a pair or two of dogs and breed them over and over again, because their puppies sell. How on earth is that providing genetic diversity?? A good breeder will borrow stud dogs from other kennels or ship frozen semen, in addition to using the males currently within their breeding stock. A lot of females are only bred a few times, so they only contribute a small amount to their gene pool. I wouldn't really worry about "inbreeding" unless it's a very bad breeder we're talking about.

3, I honestly think the best choice for you is to go to a local shelter and evaluate all the dogs. Look for dogs that have temperaments and size that fit your lifestyle and needs. You have no idea if the pup you bought will grow to be the right size or have the right temperament, but with a shelter dog, there's no question about it: you get what you see. And don't focus so much on the breed stereotypes, they can be horribly skewed.
 

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I have to say that the daddy dog looks very strange to me. He looks like a puppy who hasn't grown into himself yet. And he doesn't look like 14 lbs, more like 30.
 

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There is no way to know. The pups could out grow brother their parents actually. I think you are foolish to believe this breeder. Even in pure breds who are bred to strict standards sometimes an over or undersized pup or one bigger/smaller then typical comes out. When you are mixing smaller and larger breeds you are increasing the chances of getting a whole mix of size/looks. This seems like a weird/pointless breeding program to me. Or at the very least a dishonest one, it will take much more generations to produce uniformity in type including size with this type of mix.
 

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Have you already gotten the dog? If so, moot point.

If not, why not search the rescues for an adult dog that fits what you want? Maybe even talk to a golden retriever rescue (you do see smaller examples of a breed though I'm not sure how mcuh smaller you want)?

If size is really important to you, I'd really recomend you get an adult dog cause then you can be sure what size they will be (and you'll know temperment as well). I've seen dogs at the pet store I work at that look like small golden retrievers that people rescued. You just gotta have some patience :).

There really is no predicting with a puppy (I think my vet says around 5 months is where you can start really predicting but even then, he predicted my dog's size at around 5 months and he still was pretty off). My vet predicted my dog would be around 50 lbs when she grew up, she's more like 36 lbs (she's a year and a half... oh, and the mother was the only known dog and she was half husky and 1/4 pomeranian and 1/4 rat terrier).
 

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If you want a certain size dog, buying a "hybrid" isn't a great idea. It's a genetic crap shoot. Even the "full size" doodles I've seen are so radically different in size. I've mistaken a few for Irish Wolfhounds. Have you met with the breeder and seen the puppies and the parents? The breeder claiming those dogs are that weight doesn't seem truthful to me. Seems like she's just trying to get you to buy a dog.
 

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From the pictures, like others have said, these are much bigger than what your breeder said. Also, neither of the dogs look close to Champion Bloodline material.
 

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Based on the pics you posted, I'd say dog #1 is about 45 lbs and #2 is 25ish lbs. The first dog is bigger than my border collie and he's 38 lbs...second dog looks to be about the same size as my mini aussie and she's 25 lbs.

I agree there is no way of knowing for sure how big the pups will be, but I've read about mixes, goldendoodles in particular, ending up larger than either parent...it wouldn't surprise me if these pups ended up being near regular golden retriever size.
 
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