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Hi all

We have had our new puppy Puddles for about 2 months (rescued her from a shelter at 8 weeks). She is going to be 4 months come December 23.
She is already 19lbs, but her baby teeth have not dropped.

She has recently taken to chasing and biting very very hard (enough to make us unable to "freeze" or ignore) anyone when we are going to pick up her poo/are walking past her to throw it away.
If we are not around to pick up her poos she will normally try to eat them as well.

We have always been vigilant about training her bite inhibition, and normally she is mouthing but not so much as to draw blood.

The two times she does get very aggressive (playful?) are when we pick up her poops and around the evening hours when she gets very zoomy.

Help is much appreciated!
 

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Its very normal for a young pup to be exhibiting that behavior. It takes MONTHS for a pup to learn that biting humans to play is not appropriate, and sometimes they just lose their minds when they zoomie.
 

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Try taking possession of the poop by blocking her from it with your body without bending over and waiting for her to leave before bending over. She could be thinking you are inviting her to play. Pooping is a relief and dog is now ready for ACTION! Usually dogs scratch to mark the deposit but Ginger has been known to zoom away once finished. Another meaning for the term rocket butt?
 

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This sounds a lot like she is resource guarding the poops, to me, especially since you mention that she eats them... If that is the case and she is drawing blood over this, I would consult with a positive-reinforcement based trainer in your area to come up with a solid training and management plan.
 

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Everyone is always worried they will "ruin the puppy" by letting the puppy know "No teeth on me!"

Another dog would grab back, make the puppy yelp and move on. The last is most important.

Puppy grabs you, grab him back (I use the scruff because it is handy and away from teeth) and if he yelps that is OK. I grab, and say very sternly, "ENOUGH!" and then let go and move on (no 5 minute tirades!). It is very important to MOVE ON immediately. I throw a toy or do something else and forget the incident (just like another dog would) and when puppy grabs/chases the toy I say "Good Puppy!" in a high happy voice and move on.

Typically, one or two times and they "get it."

Don't get mad, don't make it a big deal. Make it hard enough to make an impression (don't nag) and then immediately MOVE ON.
 

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Everyone is always worried they will "ruin the puppy" by letting the puppy know "No teeth on me!"

Another dog would grab back, make the puppy yelp and move on. The last is most important.

Puppy grabs you, grab him back (I use the scruff because it is handy and away from teeth) and if he yelps that is OK. I grab, and say very sternly, "ENOUGH!" and then let go and move on (no 5 minute tirades!). It is very important to MOVE ON immediately. I throw a toy or do something else and forget the incident (just like another dog would) and when puppy grabs/chases the toy I say "Good Puppy!" in a high happy voice and move on.

Typically, one or two times and they "get it."

Don't get mad, don't make it a big deal. Make it hard enough to make an impression (don't nag) and then immediately MOVE ON.
The problem with this is some people, in seeing how well it *may have* worked, will begin to use P+ as their go-to method to stop other unwanted behaviours. Dog gets into trash .. scruff him. Dog jumps on people ... scruff him. Dog barks at mailman ... scruff him, and so on. It's like the old adage, if some is good more is better and too much is just enough. Pretty soon you end up with a dog who is apprehensive about his handler's apparently unpredictable nature.

Puppies don't know right from wrong. They require someone to guide them gently through this phase. That's why I believe it's best to be as benevolent as possible in ALL groundwork training. The value of 100 % trust cannot be overlooked, and undermining it will likely bring grief in one form or another.
 

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The problem with this is some people, in seeing how well it *may have* worked, will begin to use P+ as their go-to method to stop other unwanted behaviours. Dog gets into trash .. scruff him. Dog jumps on people ... scruff him. Dog barks at mailman ... scruff him, and so on. It's like the old adage, if some is good more is better and too much is just enough. Pretty soon you end up with a dog who is apprehensive about his handler's apparently unpredictable nature.

Puppies don't know right from wrong. They require someone to guide them gently through this phase. That's why I believe it's best to be as benevolent as possible in ALL groundwork training. The value of 100 % trust cannot be overlooked, and undermining it will likely bring grief in one form or another.
I TRY to give my fellow dog owners a LITTLE bit of credit. There are times when P+ is needed. Teeth on people and ignoring recall are two of those times. The very very VERY important aspect of this is to never correct out of anger. Correction should be solid, clear and quick as in one or two seconds and done and then forgotten and moved on from. I clearly stated this.

My puppy is 8 months old. All of his task learning has been R+ (I know.. shocking) but there have been about 4 corrections. One for being an @$$hat and biting, two for recall blow offs and once with impulse control and blasting out of the crate in the back of the truck at training. That is it.

He has NO manners. If he gets in the house he will hop up on the counter and walk around, the table is not an obstacle.. it is merely a challenge, he totally believes he owns the world and he is full of himself. We go on walks and I use a prong collar (carry food and a ball with me to reward for any attention to me so his focus has been coming along very fast). People see him and the most common comment I get is "that is one HAPPY dog!" The world is his oyster and he is the pearl. The rudiments of focused heeling have been started as have platz and sitz and holding a dumbell. Rudiments of tracking have been started. Learning about decoys has been started. I don't really put a lot of demands on him. I want him to be more mature in the head before we start to be more structured. Mostly we play games and little obedience things happen in that and rewards happen as a result.

All that said, he has had those 4 corrections and he is not ruined.
 

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I TRY to give my fellow dog owners a LITTLE bit of credit. There are times when P+ is needed. Teeth on people and ignoring recall are two of those times. The very very VERY important aspect of this is to never correct out of anger. Correction should be solid, clear and quick as in one or two seconds and done and then forgotten and moved on from. I clearly stated this.

My puppy is 8 months old. All of his task learning has been R+ (I know.. shocking) but there have been about 4 corrections. One for being an @$$hat and biting, two for recall blow offs and once with impulse control and blasting out of the crate in the back of the truck at training. That is it.

He has NO manners. If he gets in the house he will hop up on the counter and walk around, the table is not an obstacle.. it is merely a challenge, he totally believes he owns the world and he is full of himself. We go on walks and I use a prong collar (carry food and a ball with me to reward for any attention to me so his focus has been coming along very fast). People see him and the most common comment I get is "that is one HAPPY dog!" The world is his oyster and he is the pearl. The rudiments of focused heeling have been started as have platz and sitz and holding a dumbell. Rudiments of tracking have been started. Learning about decoys has been started. I don't really put a lot of demands on him. I want him to be more mature in the head before we start to be more structured. Mostly we play games and little obedience things happen in that and rewards happen as a result.

All that said, he has had those 4 corrections and he is not ruined.
Yeah but....you know what you're doing. 90% of the people who come on here looking for advice...don't. Not that they're bad owners, mind, they just don't know any better or don't have the experience to know. Everyone was there at one point. Like petpeeve mentioned, it's not unusual for people to think that because a correction worked in one situation, it will work in another. You know how to evaluate the dog in front of you, how to perfectly time a correction, and when to use it. 90% of people don't know how to do that. YOUR dog can handle a correction...but we have no personal experience with this person's dog to know if that individual dog can handle it, and we don't know how experienced the OP is.

I don't think your advice is bad...its just bad in this one situation where the OP is most likely a new dog owner and is still learning about dogs in general, and about how to train them. Because if their dog is anything like my dog, an inappropriately used correction -or any correction at all- could 'ruin' them, or at least cause some damage that will take a long time to fix.
 

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There are times when P+ is needed. Teeth on people and ignoring recall are two of those times.
I'm not interested in arguing or debating with the quoted poster. But I'll state this for the sake of clarity and benefit for the OP ....

I vehemently disagree with the statement that "P+ is needed". Simply put, it's not true. Myself and millions of other dog owners have successfully trained bite inhibition and reliable recall WITHOUT the use of harsh corrections. Honestly, BI and RR are not that difficult to achieve with kindness, patience, a bit of know-how and a modicum of skill.

To claim that punishment "is needed" is misleading at best, and a potentially dangerous assertion at worst. I would strongly encourage the OP to dismiss the notion, and seek more benign, force-free techniques for all training challenges. Methods that capitalize on co-operative partnerships rather than rely on adversarial overtones.
 

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My issue with the theory that there is no place for corrections or punishment because it in the wrong hands it can ruin a dog is this-
An argument can be made that there are an enormous amount of dogs being euthanized, given up, put into shelters etc, because their owners couldnt handle them. Within that group a very very large percentage of those dogs would still be in their homes if the owners had proper guidance on using +p, and were willing to use it in a constructive way.
I'd be willing to bet the benefits would far outweigh the collateral damage.
But I agree that in a perfect world +p would not be needed. But the world isnt perfect.
 

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Naive owners cannot correct effectively. I was one. Years and years of yanking my first dog around to get her to walk nicely on lead as directed by a force trainer and she didn't get it. Couple free choice lessons with clicker and she got it.
 

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Naive owners cannot correct effectively. I was one. Years and years of yanking my first dog around to get her to walk nicely on lead as directed by a force trainer and she didn't get it. Couple free choice lessons with clicker and she got it.
That is abuse, not training. She never learned what you wanted. She did not understand the job. Then she got punished for not doing the job. Good Grief.. fire that trainer!!

The dog must be taught "how to" and "want to." Most never need "have to" and "have to" can only come when "how to" is completely solid and the dog decides it does NOT "want to."

I totally agree that yanking a dog around to get her to walk nice on a lead when she has never been taught how to is totally bad training.
 

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My issue with the theory that there is no place for corrections or punishment because it in the wrong hands it can ruin a dog is this-
An argument can be made that there are an enormous amount of dogs being euthanized, given up, put into shelters etc, because their owners couldnt handle them. Within that group a very very large percentage of those dogs would still be in their homes if the owners had proper guidance on using +p, and were willing to use it in a constructive way.
I'd be willing to bet the benefits would far outweigh the collateral damage.
But I agree that in a perfect world +p would not be needed. But the world isnt perfect.
As someone who actually worked in a shelter with those dogs, P+ does not save them from landing in the shelter.
 

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As someone who actually worked in a shelter with those dogs, P+ does not save them from landing in the shelter.
No. Those dogs [email protected] is talking about never make it to you to be rehabbed in a shelter.

The R+ world labels them "dangerous" and kills them.

They were high drive dogs who needed boundaries set when they were a year old and there was no one to do it. Instead they got more love and cookies.

Sometimes it is too late and then no one can handle them and, at 5 years old, they truly ARE dangerous dogs who fight structure and boundaries.

Sadly, these dogs can be the best dogs to own; the most loyal and hard working but their owners thought cookies and love would do it all. SMH
 

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No. Those dogs [email protected] is talking about never make it to you to be rehabbed in a shelter.

The R+ world labels them "dangerous" and kills them.
I 100% take serious issue with that. That is something that the P+ world has made up to justify their use of force and corrections. I know many many people involved in shelters and rescues who a very strong advocates of +R training and they do NOT label dogs dangerous and kill them unless they actually are very seriously dangerous (as in serious aggression cases, dogs that should NOT be adopted out to the general public because they have a serious bite history) and there is no place for them to go.
 

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No. Those dogs [email protected] is talking about never make it to you to be rehabbed in a shelter.
Well that's funny, seeing as how I was the one making the decisions on whether or not to rehab dogs that came into our open-admission shelter (i.e., we take the dog regardless of its behaviour, health status, or history).... But we've been through this before: you obviously know more about my job working in my shelter than I do.
 

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Funny how most of my time when I worked as a pet dog trainer was spent working on issues like resource guarding and reactivity that was made *worse* by the use of P+ lol... yet apparently P+ saves lives. Ok, buddy.

A 4 month old puppy RG-ing does not need P+. They need patience, smart handling, and trust building.
 

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Funny how most of my time when I worked as a pet dog trainer was spent working on issues like resource guarding and reactivity that was made *worse* by the use of P+ lol... yet apparently P+ saves lives. Ok, buddy.

A 4 month old puppy RG-ing does not need P+. They need patience, smart handling, and trust building.
^ This so much. My shelter pups came with this sort of baggage. Bucky is little otherwise he would be an extremely dangerous dog due to leading with teeth when upset. Using as much R+ as possible has helped so much. Teeth on people was because other signals were ignored.
 
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