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Discussion Starter #1
Or at least, with my husband. I haven't tested it with anyone else. I finally got serious about training Molly to do a nice loose leash walk. She generally did before but she also pulled a lot and since she's only 12 lbs I lazily ignored it, bad me, I know. After being shamed into action by a stranger who noted her pulling to me, I worked with her for a few days and she's doing beautifully with keeping the leash loose & heeling when I ask for it. Then we went for a walk with my husband and everything seems to have gone out the window. I thought, at first, it was the location. I'd been working with her on our quiet sidewalks & we were doing this walk on a trail with a meadow & lots of mole holes (her favorite), i.e. lots of distractions. However, we did a walk around the block with my husband and she still pulled like crazy. She's got a great relationship with hubs & loves to hang out with him so it's not an aversion to him that's causing her to pull. I'd appreciate some suggestions on what's going on here and how I can work with her so that she walks nicely when we walk with another person. Thanks in advance!
 

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It's a common problem. You have to retrain her in the presence of your husband. Dogs are very particular about what they learn. They don't generalize behaviors to all situations.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
It's a common problem. You have to retrain her in the presence of your husband. Dogs are very particular about what they learn. They don't generalize behaviors to all situations.
Thank you for the response. I was thinking this would be the case. So, I should essentially do the same thing I did when I worked with her by myself?
 

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Thank you for the response. I was thinking this would be the case. So, I should essentially do the same thing I did when I worked with her by myself?


Yep exactly, that should be easy. The hard part is convincing your husband that it will work (well, at least in my experience people are harder than dogs).
 

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Work with your husband; also have him walk a little ahead and a little behind; change the side that he walks on; AND have him hold the leash while you walk along, having him repeat what you were doing as the walker.
 

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Prong collar, yes it is a band-aid but I consider it power steering. My griff pulled something bad on a regular flat collar, put him in a prong and now he walks on a loose lead at a perfect heel.
 

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Prong collar, yes it is a band-aid but I consider it power steering. My griff pulled something bad on a regular flat collar, put him in a prong and now he walks on a loose lead at a perfect heel.
Never. That's not the kind of relationship I want with my dog. This is a trainable issue, not one that needs a tool to teach my dog by hurting or scaring her.
 

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So, I should essentially do the same thing I did when I worked with her by myself?
I'm wondering where YOUR focus is, ie: when walking her by yourself vs. when walking her with your husband ? Perhaps it's just a simple concentration issue on the part of the HUMAN ?

Sometimes, even a small amount of (new) seemingly innocuous cross-talk / verbal interference is all it takes to throw previously solid training into a tailspin.

.... just stating the obvious I suppose. Still, I had to ask.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I'm wondering where YOUR focus is, ie: when walking her by yourself vs. when walking her with your husband ? Perhaps it's just a simple concentration issue on the part of the HUMAN ?

Sometimes, even a small amount of (new) seemingly innocuous cross-talk / verbal interference is all it takes to throw previously solid training into a tailspin.

.... just stating the obvious I suppose. Still, I had to ask.
No, it's a good question. Thanks for responding. When we're walking by ourselves, my focus is on her and it's on her when walking with hubs because she starts pulling immediately. Prior to getting serious about loose leash training, I'd just let her pull me along but now I stop, have her come back to me and sit before we proceed with a heel. If she pulls ahead, we stop and repeat. Once she heels nicely for a clip, I'll give her a bit more leash so she can move ahead a bit & get her nose to the ground, which is her real focus. I used treats for the first few training sessions but have phased them out for our solo walks. I'll definitely use them again when training her to LLW when we're with another walker, which is happening this morning.
 

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In reading about prong collars, I sometimes wonder if they might be more humane than the flat collar. (they seem certainly more humane than a choke collar!)

I have noticed that when my little 13 lb pup happens to run to the end of the leash, 90% of the force it directed at the trachea area.... on the flat collar.

Now, if the properly used prong collar prevents that or otherwise modulates these behavior, that has to be a good thing healthwise. In addition, the pressure points appear to be distributed a tad better than on a regular flat collar.

If you ever witnessed a dog wheezing and hacking as it pulls it's owner, I can only imagine that it is more humane to have a dog that wears a prong collar without pulling. (and I am comparing the minimally trained dog with a flat collar and a minimally trained dog with a prong collar... lets face it, not everyone is going to train their dog)

Of course, the various head harness devices are good, too.

In many cases, these are band-aides, but at least they resolve that nasty pulling.

That said, and I have seen dogs pull hard on a prong collar for sure.
 

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In reading about prong collars, I sometimes wonder if they might be more humane than the flat collar. (they seem certainly more humane than a choke collar!)

I have noticed that when my little 13 lb pup happens to run to the end of the leash, 90% of the force it directed at the trachea area.... on the flat collar.

Now, if the properly used prong collar prevents that or otherwise modulates these behavior, that has to be a good thing healthwise. In addition, the pressure points appear to be distributed a tad better than on a regular flat collar.

If you ever witnessed a dog wheezing and hacking as it pulls it's owner, I can only imagine that it is more humane to have a dog that wears a prong collar without pulling. (and I am comparing the minimally trained dog with a flat collar and a minimally trained dog with a prong collar... lets face it, not everyone is going to train their dog)

Of course, the various head harness devices are good, too.

In many cases, these are band-aides, but at least they resolve that nasty pulling.

That said, and I have seen dogs pull hard on a prong collar for sure.
I agree that the flat collar isn't ideal if you have a puller, for the reason you cite. That said, there are so many other options besides a prong collar! If you want a milder aversive, there's the head halter and the easy walk front clip harness. There is also the sporn no pull harness, which tightens under the dog's arms when the dog pulls. I would use any of these before the prong, which, as you note, doesn't always stop pulling and doesn't transfer the pressure away from the throat. (Although I see a surprising number of people walking their dog in a head halter and flexi leash, which is just dangerous).

That said, we use a normal back-clip harness and always have, even when we were teaching B how to walk loose leash, because I didn't want to depend on special walking equipment.
 

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Agreed.

Although I might resort to special equipment to get the dog to be easy on the leash (although she isn't terrible).

The question I always have is this: "Yes, I can see how I could get excellent behavior using [fill in the blank], but how does that get faded to the point that I can walk with normal equipment (or even off leash)"
 

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Agreed.

Although I might resort to special equipment to get the dog to be easy on the leash (although she isn't terrible).

The question I always have is this: "Yes, I can see how I could get excellent behavior using [fill in the blank], but how does that get faded to the point that I can walk with normal equipment (or even off leash)"
I think a lot of people just end up using the easy-walk harness for long term. Nothing wrong with that. And also, I think people try to fade the training equipment by using two leashes, one attached to the training gear and one to the normal collar.

LLW in general takes a lot of practice and repetition and consistency to get right. Biscuit has never been a really bad puller, but we were stopping, making like a tree, backing up 3 steps...for MONTHS before Biscuit finally got the memo about what "no pulling" means. And she still requires a reminder from time to time.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I agree that the flat collar isn't ideal if you have a puller, for the reason you cite. That said, there are so many other options besides a prong collar! If you want a milder aversive, there's the head halter and the easy walk front clip harness. There is also the sporn no pull harness, which tightens under the dog's arms when the dog pulls. I would use any of these before the prong, which, as you note, doesn't always stop pulling and doesn't transfer the pressure away from the throat. (Although I see a surprising number of people walking their dog in a head halter and flexi leash, which is just dangerous).

That said, we use a normal back-clip harness and always have, even when we were teaching B how to walk loose leash, because I didn't want to depend on special walking equipment.
I have a harness for Molly as well, which she wears exclusively, because I've been concerned about her delicate neck. We're still having pulling problems, esp. in high distraction areas like the beach trail. She's SO scent driven that she is completely focused on the scent, she doesn't even want the treat I'm trying to use to lure her into a loose leash. She gets so focused on the scent she's following that she doesn't even seem to hear me. I used a bully stick the other day when she was pulling during a sidewalk walk. We go to the Feed store in the mornings and she likes to carry her bully home. Every time she pulled, I took it and didn't return it until she was walking nicely beside me. I'm afraid of creating a resource guarder though so I'm not sure if this is the best route. A treat would probably be much better but even liver doesn't inspire her when there are gopher holes to inspect.
 

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I would seriously consider a head halter - Gentle Leader here. You can use it as a training tool and when she responds to you pulling her head up, she is rewarded. Using the head halter and shaping does work well if you are consistent.

Having said that I do know of a dog or two that are incredibly stubborn about the head halter and there I recomended the Gentle Walker. Again use it as a tool and shape what you want.
 

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The prong is a great training tool, and works quite well to 'lighten up' dogs that like to pull on the collar. After dealing with Kilt being a brat on leash the last bit, I'm going to go pick up another prong since I can't find mine!

I will use it to get her out of the habit of pulling and jerking around on leash when there's a distraction she just HAS to chase, like the other dogs (food doesn't matter in those cases) then use her flat again with the prong as a backup. Two leashes and collars for a bit but then no dislocated shoulders... She'll need it for obedience anyway so I can adjust where she is without using my whole arm.
 
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