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Dac If you are comfortable with the prong and it works for you and your dog use it. Others are passionate about there methods and giving you alternatives that they feel are effective. Which by definition are more your humane. They may or may not work well for you and your situation. But they do work.

<<<But since man has decided to create things such as prong collars, choke collars, shock collars, electric fences>>>

dont forget haltis. (which can cause neck injuries)

Also CP, saying avoidence of PAIN can be misleading. Avoidence of Stimuli may be better. Example a pager collar is certainly not causing pain but is used in avoidence training.
 

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There is nothing misleading in saying a prong collar works by causing pain. What is misleading is to suggest it does not. To do so would be a clear misunderstanding of how the collar does work.

And in my opinion is why so many people fail to use this collar effectively to deliver one true correction and be done with the collar. This to me is where the usage of a collar like this becomes abusive in that with such under the threshold stimuli a dog is merely subjected to repeated nagging discomfort and all of the issues that MAY result.

Is'nt it after all the idea in the use of aversive based correction methods to make the dog choose not to experience the uncomfortable or painful event again?

Without discomfort or pain the tool becomes for the most part useless and ineffective as mentioned so why bother using the tool in the first place?
 

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And in my opinion is why so many people fail to use this collar effectively to deliver one true correction and be done with the collar. This to me is where the usage of a collar like this becomes abusive in that with such under the threshold stimuli a dog is merely subjected to repeated nagging discomfort and all of the issues that MAY result.
Just one inherent problem with that, Joe Shmoe doesn't have the mechanical skill, nor the dog reading abilities to deliver that one perfectly timed correction. Good in theory, poor in practice.

Is'nt it after all the idea in the use of aversive based correction methods to make the dog choose not to experience the uncomfortable or painful event again?
No. The aversion is not meant to give the dog a choice between comfort or discomfort. The dog is meant to associate the aversion with doing or not doing a behavior. If the dog were to choose between comfort or discomfort and the aversion is too much, would fleeing in pain, or directing aggression onto his owner be acceptable? Of course not. The aversion needs to be severe enough to be effective (meaning it must be tested), but not so severe that you introduce unwanted, respondent behavior.

Thus the necessity to get expert instruction when using such a tool.

Without discomfort or pain the tool becomes for the most part useless and ineffective as mentioned so why bother using the tool in the first place?
I have to agree, and I am so bold to say the ineffective use of such a tool is tantamount to abuse.
 

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I find it interesting that the discussion has moved beyond "helping" someone and into flaming. Yes, flaming...to assume that someone is too lazy or cruel to "correctly" train an animal by your methods, is the height of arrogance. Also, to assume that dakotajo didn't bother to think or research the use of the pinch collar is arrogance. The use of this collar is not abuse. What is abuse is no training or just letting it go.
Have you had experience with this dog? Only one person has. Do you own a breed of this size or strength? If not why are you assuming that your way is superior. Remember each dog is different and unless you've been exposed to this dog then state your preferred training method and leave it at that. But to insinuate that there is no research, and the use of this method is abuse is wrong.
The lack of respect is starting to water down your arguments. I hope that a moderator would curb this activity before it turns into flaming.

"If the dog is bolting down the street, then you have no dog to give a treat to."
 

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There is nothing misleading in saying a prong collar works by causing pain. What is misleading is to suggest it does not. To do so would be a clear misunderstanding of how the collar does work.
I would think that saying it is aversive is more correct than saying it causes pain. I dont think anyone can argue that a prong collar can cause pain, It certainly is a negative stimuli in all instances when a correction is given regardless of ones definition of pain.

People hear its causes Pain and they are using their definition of pain not the True definition you use of any unpleasent sensation regardless of how mild.
 

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And in my opinion is why so many people fail to use this collar effectively to deliver one true correction and be done with the collar. This to me is where the usage of a collar like this becomes abusive in that with such under the threshold stimuli a dog is merely subjected to repeated nagging discomfort and all of the issues that MAY result.

Is'nt it after all the idea in the use of aversive based correction methods to make the dog choose not to experience the uncomfortable or painful event again?

Without discomfort or pain the tool becomes for the most part useless and ineffective as mentioned so why bother using the tool in the first place?
Sparkle
Well in a perfect world one correction could do it I suppose, I just have never met a one correction dog. If I was training a dog that could be trained with one proper correction with a prong collar, in all probability I would be using a much easier collar. A dog soft enough that only one correction was needed actually could be ruined with one overpowering correction. Think about it 1st, a correction must be given to read dog's reaction to the correction. As an avid prong collar trainer am I first going to pop a dog hard in order to finish whatever phase of training I am doing with one pop. No I am not. Now, understand there will be no nagging a dog into obedience with multiple unnecessary pops. Once I have a proper read of the mental strength of the dog I would proceed as needed. The only reason I am replying is that there may be somebody reading these replies that think Golly, I'll just pop that lead and prong collar 1 time very hard and my dog will be better for it.
 

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I find it interesting that the discussion has moved beyond "helping" someone and into flaming. Yes, flaming...to assume that someone is too lazy or cruel to "correctly" train an animal by your methods, is the height of arrogance.
No one has flamed anyone, and frankly backseat moderating is discouraged on our forum. If you have a problem with a post, report it. If there's any credence to your claim, the post will be dealt with, or otherwise ignored.

Remember each dog is different and unless you've been exposed to this dog then state your preferred training method and leave it at that.
Yes, each dog is different, but again, the principles by which they learn are the same. More to your point, no one knows this dog or handler, therefore no one can discuss what is the appropriate handling of this dog beyond discussing the principles of learning.

But to insinuate that there is no research, and the use of this method is abuse is wrong.
I don't know what you're reading, but no one insinuated this. Absolutely there is research on how pain motivates animals. We need to thank all those animals that suffered our abuse in the name of science. There's no need to abuse animals today, and what exactly is the harm in offering caution when using this tool? Do you want to use a prong collar ineffectively? If so, you're boarding on abuse. There's no reason, not a one, that a dog should suffer from the ineffective use of a training tool. And there's no argument you can present to justify it.

The lack of respect is starting to water down your arguments. I hope that a moderator would curb this activity before it turns into flaming.
Again, no one is disrespecting anyone. Clearly you have a problem with diverging opinions. This is not a forum problem.

"If the dog is bolting down the street, then you have no dog to give a treat to."
And this is a quote of ignorance. To assume someone who does use food reinforcers is someone who is not disciplined in their own right is just absurd.
 
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