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Again, the dog's breed is NOT justification for the use of this tool.
I never said it was.

I haven't read anyone saying they should be outlawed.
Quite often, people on this forum, come across that way. Not saying you were. I was talking to the forum as a whole

jiml said:
I actually prefer E-collars over pinch and choke collars - they can be used at an exteamly low settings. But I fully understand that they are easaly abused and can still be used to SHOCK the dogs like the old ones did.
That's your opinion, and I agree with the highlighted. How ever, the shock will still cause pain, so it's no different. Your not always pulling on the pinch collar as hard as you can, just has you aren't shocking at the highest setting. Every thing in moderation
 

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Discussion Starter #23
well.. for instance today we were walking by a mother with her little one in the stroller, these were the first people on our walk that we passed on the sidewalk, Dakota loves people and especially kids so she lunged and jumped towards them, if I had the halti on she would of jumped and lunged way more, I gave her a quick tug and she stopped instantly. This lady didn't look at all pleased with the dog even before we actually passed her. I think just because she's a big puppy some people are uneasy. Afterwards we passed another lady and she wanted to talk and Dakota sat at feet, and we also passed another stroller and she ignored it, so this tool is teaching her to have some control.
This is kind of like when parents aren't allowed to spank their children for fear of abuse charges, but there's a BIG difference between discipline and abuse
 

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Afterwards we passed another lady and she wanted to talk and Dakota sat at feet, and we also passed another stroller and she ignored it, so this tool is teaching her to have some control.
As you described it, the collar is NOT being used to get behavior. Punishment does NOT teach the dog what to do. Punishment (if effective) reduces the frequency of the behavior (in this case lunging) in the future. You can only get behavior through reinforcement. One day's worth of walks does not qualify the effectiveness of this tool. If you can learn to keep your dog from lunging in the first place (perhaps by walking around people at a distance), reinforce appropriate greeting behavior, and phase out the collar, then and only then can you say you've effectively used the tool.

But again, due to your limitations, completely phasing out the collar may not be a priority or recommended.
 

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So as I thought, "I bet the first two things that the replies will focus on is clicker training, and using pain.

Use the prong collar, you see that it works, so use it. Just use it properly. You don't do any jerking around. Get this concept, advantageous and disadvantageous to him.

You need to practice a foundation of what walking is. Walking with you means fill in the blank and not walking with you means fill in the blank

The clicker zombies use treats, pet, praise, back turns, end play time, withhold treat, put dog back in crate, squirt water in the face.

Why can't a pressure from a prong collar looks down upon???

So for walking foundation, put your prong collar on and a 15 foot leash, let the slack go and walk, if he walks past you, to the side and away, or lagging, do a 180 turn in the other direction, give no commands. Eventually, he'll hit the end of the leash and CHECK HIMSELF. Don't check him. Your goal is to get him walking with you in your direction for 10 paces. In variety, instead of 180 turn, you just walk backwards.

Go into an empty field and practice this, work on turns, circles, squares, turns as you would in a busy location. Don't check him. You of course praise him while he walks with you but not high praise as it might break his focus. Get those 10 paces then treat. Then raise the goal, 20 steps of loose leash gets a treat.

What will he learn, walking with you in your direction means treat, praise and not walking in your direction means he'll check himself.

Your goal is to make it HIS responsibility to walk with you, not cause he's getting checked.

There are different learnings that take place, there's the check that he gives himself, which is a positive punishment BUT ALSO, if he is persistant and holding the pressure, avoidance learning takes place with negative reinforcement. He learns that walking with you relieves the pressure. Also, positive reinforcement is taking place when he walking with you. So there are many different learnings, clicker folks don't say that. They just think aversion bad.

Do this walking foundation with a 15 foot leash for 1 week, then a 6 foot leash the next week. You'll get loose leash walking instant. The problem now is just distraction. And that's the thing. You must add distraction to proof it. Practicing at a dog park is the best, just walk around all the untrained dogs that want to play with your dog. Later, you can give the heel command.

MIND YOU, you should practice sits also with distraction while proofing. Use a release word, which is a word that means he can stop that behavior to move. So get your dog into sit, and do whatever to make him break the sit, and if he does, put him back into sit, you may check him. He's not to get up until you give a release word. This should be your third week of training.

So 2 weeks of loose leash training should get your dog to walk nicely by you. 3rd week is proofing your sit so in distraction, he's paying attention to you.

Type up koehler dog training in a search engine. That's all you need. Remember, they don't teach, jerking around checks. Actually, to know that you are ready for off leash, they use a sewing thread as a leash, instead of a leash. If you can do heels, turns, sits, downs, recalls with a sewing thread, you can go off leash.
 

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So as I thought, "I bet the first two things that the replies will focus on is clicker training, and using pain.
And your point is?

The clicker zombies use treats, pet, praise, back turns, end play time, withhold treat, put dog back in crate, squirt water in the face.
Zombies? Squirt water in the face? What the heck are you talking about?

There are different learnings that take place, there's the check that he gives himself, which is a positive punishment BUT ALSO, if he is persistant and holding the pressure, avoidance learning takes place with negative reinforcement. He learns that walking with you relieves the pressure. Also, positive reinforcement is taking place when he walking with you. So there are many different learnings, clicker folks don't say that.
I don't think you know very many clicker "folks". I don't think you've met many dogs either. We, the human, want dogs to do the one thing only humans seem to do...walk in a straight, and we want them to do it while giving us attention. Walking in a straight line while ogling us is hardly reinforcing for a dog. Koehler people don't say that.

They just think aversion bad.
Explain how aversion is not.

Practicing at a dog park is the best, just walk around all the untrained dogs that want to play with your dog.
Why would you recommend the worst possible training scenario for practice?
 

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Tucker was a bad puller; he's much improved now. The first thing I tried that worked really well was the Sensible Harness (with the ring in front). I went from having my arm holding the leash being constantly sore to being able to control my 90 pound dog with one finger -- I kid you not. I stopped using it because it started to chafe him under his armpits. Now I use the GL head collar, and it, too works really well. The other thing I'm using are Ian Dunbar's sit-stay walking techniques (I believe it's a sticky at the top of the page).
 

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I did not read this into CP's post. Im pretty sure he is pretty much against Pinch collars but the post did not say they are never necessary.
I'll say it. They are never necessary. There is always a way to get the same results without the pain. Every time. Without exception.

I actually prefer E-collars and buzz collers over pinch and choke collars - they can be used at an exteamly low settings. But I fully understand that they are easaly abused and can still be used to SHOCK the dogs.
E-collars are another tool for people who need to learn more advanced ways of training.
 

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You might want to have a slightly bigger choke collar on as well. That way, if the pinch pops off, you still have her on your leash... Plus, if you make the chain slack, the choke will not even correct her!
I personally don't use the choke collar. I used a Dominant Dog Collar as my backup so Betty didn't get loose. Here's the one I have, and I got it a little longer, that way it didn't interfere with the prong. I had the leash hooked to both, and the DDC stayed loose and was there just in case the prong failed.

http://leerburg.com/746.htm

Anyway you look at it, if you use a pinch collar, you are using pain to control your dog. A properly fitted Gentle Leader will not sling off and will control a giant dog (or any dog) without pain.
Not all dogs, lol. I don't care how you use the Gentle Leader, it does not work well with Betty because she's so strong in the neck. Even with the GL on, if she's reacting, she's always facing the other dog, and if I reefed on her to get her around, there's more of a risk of damaging or breaking her neck with the GL. I'm finding that with her issues, the best thing I've used so far is the GL Calming Cap. I think this just might give me the edge so I can actually work with her issues, as it's purpose is to eliminate the smaller, finer movements that dogs see, and lowers their fear/anxiety levels, and all they see is the larger movements.

Mama dog nor the "alpha" dog walks other dogs on lead. This is not a reason to use this tool. The tool is effective when it causes pain, and if we are to preserve our humanity, understanding that, and minimizing the use of this tool demonstrates our humanity...not what dogs do in ritual.
Hey, CP, I think you know where I stand on this, hehehe.....

I kind of agree with you to an extent. You say this tool is effective because it uses pain. I only agree 50% on you with this. The other 50% is the use of the tool to work with the dogs comfort levels. I do not use this tool as a 'pain' tool. When I used it with Betty in Rally to teach her proper heeling, I did not use it as a correction 'Pain' tool. I used it as a tool where she corrected herself when she became uncomfortable, then would go back to a loose lead. I did not use pain to control her with a leash pop. It's like with humans, you can work with comfort levels. It goes from comfortable, to a little irratable, to a bit more uncomfortable, to hurting a little, to a bit more pain, and then very painful. I believe dogs can adjust to this as well. And if it really did cause pain with Betty, then I don't think she would have got as far as she did so quickly.

Absolutely by minimizing the use of this tool we demonstrate our humanity. That's why it's called a tool. You use it for an intended purpose, and when the job is complete you put it away. That job is to train the dog to walk on a loose leash, not *just* punish him for pulling, forever.
When using the prong for working with the dogs comfort levels, I do not think you are punishing them. You are just setting a boundary. Another disagreement I have, a tool is something that you do not use 'Forever'. Within 4 weeks, I was already starting to phase the prong collar out with Betty, and after 6 weeks, she was just on her standard collar. I don't think 6 weeks of letting her correct herself is punishing her forever, lol.

As you described it, the collar is NOT being used to get behavior. Punishment does NOT teach the dog what to do. Punishment (if effective) reduces the frequency of the behavior (in this case lunging) in the future. You can only get behavior through reinforcement.
Yes, I got one more thing, lol. Punishment can also increase the frequency and intensity of a behavior as well. Example, using the Prong on Betty when I was trying to work with her reactiveness to other dogs. The prong collar increased the reactiveness exponentially, and I had to immediately stopped using it for this purpose. I only used it for the 5 or 6 weeks in Rally til she really got her heeling down and we moved to just working with a standard nylon collar. Now the prong is put away, probably will never have to take it out again. So I do not recommend it for reactive dogs, but some have actually benefited from it's use.

Now for anyone new here that's reading this and think I'm giving CP a hard time or work over, I'm not, lol. CP knows me well, and knows I respect their views, and I just point mine out as well. That's what these forums are for. I've done this with CP before on a couple other threads reguarding the prong, right CP? hehehe.

Oh, and CP, if you haven't already seen the thread, Betty's DNA test results confirmed what I thought, her Primary Breed is ACD. And it showed she had a little Newfie in her as well, but I don't see it at all, lol. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #31
I am really thankful for all this information:) I just never knew it was such a hard task in getting a dog to walk nice. Now I know I have plenty of options to try with her and I'm curious to know how she will do in obedience class. I'm sure the trainer will see how she reacts, all those other dogs she'll be on her best behaviour I'm sure. Sometimes I don't know if I should cry or laugh with this dog, maybe I'm just losing it
 

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Do me a favor..put that prong collar around your neck and tighten it/apply pressure..you think those little prongs don't hurt very much, but they do.
 

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LWB

When using the prong for working with the dogs comfort levels, I do not think you are punishing them. You are just setting a boundary. Another disagreement I have, a tool is something that you do not use 'Forever'. Within 4 weeks, I was already starting to phase the prong collar out with Betty, and after 6 weeks, she was just on her standard collar. I don't think 6 weeks of letting her correct herself is punishing her forever, lol.

In a perfect world you are 100% correct. In the regular world there are just going to be people that need it as a tool.
 

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Do me a favor..put that prong collar around your neck and tighten it/apply pressure..you think those little prongs don't hurt very much, but they do.

One thing you forgot, is with all the fur on a Bernese (which is her dog), it's more like putting the collar over a thick spring jacket. Just putting it in perspective. Now for a Boxer owner, you should put it on your skin.
 

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I'll say it. They are never necessary. There is always a way to get the same results without the pain. Every time. Without exception.

E-collars are another tool for people who need to learn more advanced ways of training.

This is your opinion and while I dont agree with it totally, I do respect it.
 

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You say this tool is effective because it uses pain. I only agree 50% on you with this...I used it as a tool where she corrected herself when she became uncomfortable, then would go back to a loose lead. I did not use pain to control her with a leash pop. It's like with humans, you can work with comfort levels. It goes from comfortable, to a little irratable, to a bit more uncomfortable, to hurting a little, to a bit more pain, and then very painful.
I don't think you're disagreeing as much as you are defining your dog's pain threshold. I don't find this exercise necessary when describing how the tool works. Whether you're introducing pain, or whether the dog is "self correcting", the collar can only be effective if it does cause pain. How you define that level of pain is irrelevant. How you prove the tool is effective *is* relevant but it is not based on a perceived level of pain. It doesn't matter if I *think* the collar causes no more pain than an itch, if the tool proves ineffective.

Yes, I got one more thing, lol. Punishment can also increase the frequency and intensity of a behavior as well. Example, using the Prong on Betty when I was trying to work with her reactiveness to other dogs.
By definition, no, punishment does not increase behavior, ever. What you're describing is the result of classical conditioning...the reason this tool and any other punitive tool should be used with caution.
 

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Do me a favor..put that prong collar around your neck and tighten it/apply pressure..you think those little prongs don't hurt very much, but they do.
I've tried it, hehe, it doesn't really hurt at all unless you give a physical correction, on me that is. The ends of the prongs are all blunt, not sharp tips..
 

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Discussion Starter #38
I'm glad some of you know where I'm coming from! and the teeth are rounded off. I do not exist when she has a normal collar on. When I bring out the prong she gets excited and knows we are going for a walk and I would think if it was so much torture she would back off, and when I would take out the halti she would take off, she hated that thing around her nose. Treats don't exist either when she's determined to go. She was socialized alot but you wouldn't think so. Every little thing she hears, smells, sees, she has to investigate and this collar helps keep her focused. Like I mentioned above, my hands can't take it anymore and if it works for her and me then that should be the important thing
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Thank you!!:) Sometimes I think she tries soo hard to control herself with things that's she's happy when I can control them. If I was more computer literate I would show you this girl in action. She can't sit still for more than 10 seconds
 
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