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Discussion Starter #1
okay, I have come to the realization that this is the collar she responds to best. After the crazy episode the other day when she flipped the Halti off her head I was desperate for something to work for the pulling and for any distractions. I went to the pet store and she told me how to correctly use the prong and I was amazed how Dakota instantly was focused. I'm not sure if it's the rattling of the chain or the collar itself. We went for an hour and a half walk today and it was actually a relief that I had some control. I'm not saying that she didn't try to pull EVER but when she tried and I corrected her, she stopped. I do know where I'm taking her for her training that they do believe in these collars and i'm hoping with all the proper training that she will be able to walk with a normal collar one of these days. I swear this dog is soo thick skinned and hardly anything bothers her!
I know some people are totally against these training tools but until you have a head strong big dog or I should say puppy that will only get stronger, it's worth a try
 

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Having a "head strong" dog is NOT a requisite for the use of this tool. "Head strong" dogs are NOT exceptions in the justification of its use.
 

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I think you may find that most of the anti-prong collar sentiment...at least the REALLY strong stuff, is directed toward those who use the collar improperly, leave it on their dogs when they are off-lead or unattended, and/or use it as a band-aid fix instead of a training tool with the goal to eliminate its use. Same goes for halti's and some of the other supposedly "gentle" training crutches.

I'm glad you are seeking training advice regarding the collar's use and are working to the point where the prong is no longer required. I think with determination you will discover that you can phase it out very quickly...how fast is a direct result of whether you are willing to put the work in.

Have you looked into "clicker" training at all? I find it's very helpful in teaching the ability to walk on a loose leash, as the "click" is rather more precise than most people's voice, and the difference between a tight lead and a slight decrease in pressure can be so fast.

Good luck
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thank you Shaina for a little more positive attitude. I have never tried clicker training but anything is worth a shot. I love going for walks with my dog and I'm thinking it will poop her out more and she won't go crazy running around the yard and injuring her leg even more. I do take it off after our walks:)

Curbside Prophet- I was warned by the lady at the store that I'll probably get crap thrown my way for it's use but I believe I am using it correctly and she's starting her training on the 24th so I'm trying to do what's best for her and me. I'm not a real young pup myself so a nice walk is crucial. So what kind of dogs are justified for it's use then?
 

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So what kind of dogs are justified for it's use then?
No "kind" of dog. *I* would only need to use one for extenuating circumstances...like, the dog is due for a euthanasia table, and I've run out of ideas.

By the way, I'm not flinging crap, but "head strong" dogs are trained everyday without this tool, so I'm merely stating a fact. How you label the dog should not be considered justification onto itself.

However, if you have more dog than you can handle, you may very well be a candidate.
 

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Dakotajo I have used a pinch collar myself. I have Rottweilers and do rescue and have had a few that were more dog then most anyone could handle without help. I am not THAT big of a person and the collar was helpful. Like Shaina said, it is a tool and once the dog is understanding what is expected of him/her they will likely no longer need the pinch collar. I have a little friend with a 150 pound St. Bernard and she is only 4 foot 11 inches. It is crazy to see her walking that dog. She has needed a pinch collar in the past as well because not only is he stronger then her but he is also more active then any St. Bernard I have ever known in my life. Great dog but the little bit of extra help in the early stages of training was needed there as well. You sound pretty responsible also that you went to find out How to properly use the tool before doing so. Good for you.
I agree that clicker training is something worth looking into for you. For most anyone for that matter. :)
 

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Thank you Shaina for a little more positive attitude. I have never tried clicker training but anything is worth a shot. I love going for walks with my dog and I'm thinking it will poop her out more and she won't go crazy running around the yard and injuring her leg even more. I do take it off after our walks:)

Curbside Prophet- I was warned by the lady at the store that I'll probably get crap thrown my way for it's use but I believe I am using it correctly and she's starting her training on the 24th so I'm trying to do what's best for her and me. I'm not a real young pup myself so a nice walk is crucial. So what kind of dogs are justified for it's use then?
Look at it this way, if as you say you're not a spring chicken and are overdogged a tad, by using the collar correctly it also keeps you healthy and if you're healthy you can take good care of you and dog. There also is no reason you can't use this collar forever for safe dog walks. You, depending on your ability to learn and your trainer's to teach may be able to eliminate prong down the road. If not just use it for safety.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
thank you all for your input, even you Curbside:) I have to admit she is more than I can handle. I never knew just how strong this breed was or any other since I've never had a dog pull so bad before. I have arthritis in my hands and they tend to get cramped. I'm not near pension yet but let's just say I'm not even in my thirties anymore:( If the trainer comes up with something that works well other than the prong I'll be happy with that too. The things I love most about this dog is she's friendly, happy, and makes great eye contact. She can sit, lay down, stay, shake a paw then other paw and I know she loves please she just has to relax a little
 

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I'm glad you are seeking training advice regarding the collar's use and are working to the point where the prong is no longer required.
Very well said. I used the prong with my Betty in Rally training for her heeling, and it worked very well. And within a few weeks time, I was getting to the point to where I could start working towards just a standard collar, and now I only use the nylon collar on her. I personally didn't use corrections with the prong, I allowed her to correct herself. And it worked for her very well.

But for those who have very tough dogs that are reactive, I do not recommend using them. I tried it with Betty, to try and work around other dogs, and it only increased her reactivity, and not by just a little bit. So I immediately stopped using it for that, and only used it in Rally training. So for those who do decide to try and use it on their reactive dogs, just be prepared to stop if the reactiveness escillates. Some people have successfully used them for this, but dogs like Betty, who is a really hard dog (completely ignores pain when reactive), she only became more reactive.
 

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I really like how everyone seems to acknowledge that sometimes we don't have all the answers and that ideally no dog would ever have to use a training collar but realistically it is better to get the dog under control with a pincher than let them pull and pull on a flat collar (not good for doggy necks!). I have never used a prong on my dogs (we used them at a shelter I used to volunteer at, not my choice) but have actually used a choke chain (I know, I know, just wait) only during training to get attention, never as a correction. (This means I gave a VERY soft tug. . .almost a jiggle to get the dog to look at me because she was sick of my voice).

I really don't like the idea of dogs pulling against flat collars, at least a training collar gets their attention quickly so that they stop pulling. Of course, if you have a dog that continually pulls even against a training collar, I would say that the tool isn't working and try something else.
 

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I never knew just how strong this breed was or any other since I've never had a dog pull so bad before. I have arthritis in my hands and they tend to get cramped.
That's what Berners were breed to do... LOL! I didn't know either... I got a very rude awakening!

You might want to have a slightly bigger choke collar on as well. That way, if the pinch pops off, you still have her on your leash... Plus, if you make the chain slack, the choke will not even correct her!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
thanks for that tip, I was thinking that yesterday if the collar popped off what to do! I did have her other collar in my pocket but then was thinking she could be taking off across the street and wouldn't get the other one on her in time. I struggle with prong links to get them together because it hurts the hands but I didn't want to get the quick release one in case that popped off too easily. Off topic here but I can't believe how much she digs!! I thought the walks and going down to the park off leash would burn some energy but she comes home and proceeds to dig everywhere and anywhere!!:eek:
 

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Anyway you look at it, if you use a pinch collar, you are using pain to control your dog. A properly fitted Gentle Leader will not sling off and will control a giant dog (or any dog) without pain. I have worked with many giant breed dogs and have never found one I couldn't control with one hand on the GL. I find the GL many times preferable to a pinch or choke collar.
 

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Id say it depends onn the dog. I had a dog years ago that pulled terrably. Put a pinch collar on her and it stopped instantly. No popping on my part nothing. And after a couple months we took it off and she never pulled bad again.

Now on my current dog adversive (the old school choke chain methods I knew) methods were not going to work at all. So I was introduced to the clicker.

sometimes harnesses that clip in the front work well when a bad puller will not accept a head collar
 

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Anyway you look at it, if you use a pinch collar, you are using pain to control your dog.
Yes, but you are also using the dog's natural instincts. The pinch collar works because a mother dog or an alpha dog would pinch an unruly dog on the scruff of the neck. You see it all the time at dog parks. So actually, it's quite humane. Also, the pain is not constant.
 

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Yes, but you are also using the dog's natural instincts. The pinch collar works because a mother dog or an alpha dog would pinch an unruly dog on the scruff of the neck. You see it all the time at dog parks. So actually, it's quite humane. Also, the pain is not constant.
Mama dog nor the "alpha" dog walks other dogs on lead. This is not a reason to use this tool. The tool is effective when it causes pain, and if we are to preserve our humanity, understanding that, and minimizing the use of this tool demonstrates our humanity...not what dogs do in ritual.
 

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Im certainly not against corrections. But i would agree with that. Very well put

<<The tool is effective when it causes pain, and if we are to preserve our humanity, understanding that, and minimizing the use of this tool demonstrates our humanity...not what dogs do in ritual.>>>
 

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No, that's not a reason to use the tool, I was just saying why it works. Minimizing the use of a pinch collar does not demonstrate our humanity. People tend to see things differently, when they try to walk down the street with a 70+ pound dog that was breed for pulling. If it works, why not use it. One thing we can not do, is ban the use of any one thing (Choke, Pinch, electric etc.). Not only does this take away from your or my freedom, but for some dogs - like the Bernese (or any other breed) - that pulls you done the street, it is sometimes nessissary.
 

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Minimizing the use of a pinch collar does not demonstrate our humanity. People tend to see things differently, when they try to walk down the street with a 70+ pound dog that was breed for pulling. If it works, why not use it.
Again, the dog's breed is NOT justification for the use of this tool. I've met and trained many sledding dogs who walk fine on a loose leash, and were taught without a prong collar.

Absolutely by minimizing the use of this tool we demonstrate our humanity. That's why it's called a tool. You use it for an intended purpose, and when the job is complete you put it away. That job is to train the dog to walk on a loose leash, not *just* punish him for pulling, forever. If this were so, the tool is NOT working. I don't know anyone who would/can argue that it's okay to cause the dog pain, just because, and claim to be humane. That's bass ackwards logic.

One thing we can not do, is ban the use of any one thing (Choke, Pinch, electric etc.). Not only does this take away from your or my freedom, but for some dogs - like the Bernese (or any other breed) - that pulls you done the street, it is sometimes nessissary.
I haven't read anyone saying they should be outlawed. I have read arguments against the silly reasoning for the use of this tool. Like how we label the dog, or blaming the breed.
 

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Not only does this take away from your or my freedom, but for some dogs - like the Bernese (or any other breed) - that pulls you done the street, it is sometimes nessissary.

I did not read this into CP's post. Im pretty sure he is pretty much against Pinch collars but the post did not say they are never necessary. Now when they are necessary well that is clearly going to be an item of contention...

I actually prefer E-collars and buzz collers over pinch and choke collars - they can be used at an exteamly low settings. But I fully understand that they are easaly abused and can still be used to SHOCK the dogs.
 
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