[Twinney]

I told Steven noooo prong collars on Marko. Ever. I missed last weeks puppy training and what did he do? Of course Joe and Jean talked him into but I told him NO PRONG COLLARS. I think they are VERY good training tools...but on a three month old puppy?

He said Marko was so distracted by the prong collar he couldn't get any training in. He's bringing it back Monday.

I talked to a friend about this, and this particular girl doesn't even beleive in choke chains on adults, let alone prong collars on puppies. She wasn't too fond of the idea. Monday I think I'll be harassing the answers to my questions out of Joe and Jean.

Don't get me wrong, their adult training classes aren't bad, they just over use prong collars. They haven't tried getting one on Kola yet, and I don't think they will. Kola has a perfectly fine heel thank you. If Marko were all mine, we'd be hanging out at PetSmart, not around some people who don't know anything about puppies. They use the Koehler method really...not one I approve of.

On the upside, Marko will never have a prong collar on him again, and he'll never be alpha rolled again.

 

[Marsh Muppet]

They use the Koehler method really...

Koehler never recommended prong collars on 3 month old puppies. He actually wrote that dogs were to be *managed* until 6 months, at which time training could begin. I don't believe he ever advocated the roll, either.

40 years after his books were published, his methods leave something to be desired. He can't rightly be blamed for trainers who don't even follow them, though.

 

[LastCallLabs]

His methods do work though, and as with all training methods, we have to weed out what we are not comfortable with. Koehler did not advocate training a puppy at all...

I see no problem with a prong on a puppy, would prefer it to a slip collar or a metal choke chain, so long as the person at the other end was well equipped to use it, and could be trusted not to make any collar corrections.

 

[Marsh Muppet]

His methods do work though, and as with all training methods, we have to weed out what we are not comfortable with. Koehler did not advocate training a puppy at all...

Koehler developed his training method long before the pack theories came into vogue. He was much more a proponent of the thinking that dogs seek to satisfy their self interests.

 

[wvasko]

I would venture a guess that I am probably the biggest prong collar user on DF and I would not use it on a 3 month old puppy. You could reverse the collar and let your supervised puppy run around with collar on if you were attempting to phase it in when pup was proper age. I don't even advise that because of the temptation that would cause some people to jump in where they do not belong.

 

[Curbside Prophet]

His methods do work though, and as with all training methods, we have to weed out what we are not comfortable with. Koehler did not advocate training a puppy at all...

I have to agree...a method that "works" simply isn't a good enough criteria.

Here's an excerpt from "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" on how to train a dog to stop chewing:

The specific technique is to select a piece of the material he has chewed (and you needn't catch him in the act) and place it well back, crossways, in his mouth. Use a strip of adhesive tape to wrap the muzzle securely in front of the chewed material, so that no amount of gagging and clawing can force it from his mouth...

Perhaps you are wondering if these frantic efforts to rid himself of the material will cause the dog to scratch himself painfully. Of course! They surely will. And the person who earned the money that bought the ruined shoe, or the long-awaited piece of furniture, now badly mauled, probably experienced a bit of pain when he surveyed the damage.

And if your doggie 'didn't know any better,' he'll know better after an hour or so of his mouth burden.

It later says that it should be repeated for six days straight to have 80% effectiveness. If this doesn't work Koehler says to electrify the object to shock the dog... Not only is this disturbing, but on the back of the book it says that he personally supervised the training of over 15,000 dogs and his methods have been used on at least half-a-million more.

Later in the same chapter he advocates filling a hole with water and nearly drowning a dog in the hole that he dug. Does it "work"? Absolutely. Thank goodness we've come a long way in how we choose to exercise our humanity.

 

[wvasko]

I have stated this before, in his guard dog book he wants snot coming out of your agitator's nose to authenticate that the dog only bite ne'er do well people or at the very least anybody that has a cold. That's the bad/weird news the good news is that my 1st protection type dog I trained using some of his methods and I did it without flanking (I must have had a SMART DOG) at the time I trained this dog I had no intention or inkling of becoming a dog trainer. I was just having fun.

 

[Twinney]

See, I know all about the Koehler Method, I own a book, I've used it for heel work on Fang...Kinda. I didn't like it and it wasn't working so I used my own method, which works better just not as well.

Joe and Jean aren't die hard Koehler trainers, I wonder if they even know who William Koehler is, but the way they train make me think of the book... Just about no positive reinforcement, just force.

I see no problem with a prong on a puppy, would prefer it to a slip collar or a metal choke chain, so long as the person at the other end was well equipped to use it, and could be trusted not to make any collar corrections.

Most people at training have the prong collars turn from pinch collars into digging into the neck collars. Joe says the prongs give the dog an automatic correction, and a correction before you can give it to him, which makes me think, are the owners correcting the dog twice? Is the dogs getting corrections at the wrong time (when the prong collar is on incorrect)?

 

[StardustInVegas]

I'm not a fan of prong collars, but from my trainer's point of view and many others that I read, it sounds like the person that's using the prong collars shoule be well aware on how to use it. I've seen some dogs have it, and the owners would literally keep dragging the dog on the prong collar...I found that's a little too harsh.

Plus - isn't there limitations on what type of breeds prong collars are effective for? I mean you're not going to see a prong collar on a yorkie or chinese crested.

I also believe that puppies should NEVER be on prong collars. It's not the dog's fault for being a dog. It's the human's fault for not training the puppy.