[chrisginco]

Hi, Everyone, I'm a new guy and this is my first post. I did a search on the forum and couldn't find the answer I was looking for, so, here goes.
Dune is a possible Aussie/Lab mix who's about 2 years old that I just adopted about a month or so ago from the local Humane. He walks great on a leash and is extremely affectionate with everyone. I suspect he'd been an outside only dog for reasons which may become obvious as I finish writing this question. I also had him neutered right after adoption. He's pretty good in the house besides being VERY needy and always needing to be petted and loved up. If I put him outside on his cable, he's fine with it. The problem? Regardless of whether he's been on his cable for 5 minutes or 5 hours, he sits, whines, wags his tail, and (here's the problem) PEES all over my shoes, etc. He'll then roll over on his back and Pee some more (you gotta be fast...)and just be way Hyper in general. He controls this somewhat inside, but if he gets really excited, say, you go to give him a Kong or whatever, he does the same thing. Last night, the wife went to give him a Kong and he got so excited he rolled over and pee'd on her shirt and in her hair, etc. She's not talking to me right now, and I REALLY, REALLY NEED SOME HELP IN FIGURING OUT WHAT THE PROBLEM IS AND HOW TO FIX IT!!! HELLLLPPP!
Oh yeah, Thanks!

 

[Pepper]

This is actually a pretty common problem with dogs that are easily excited, or overly submissive.

Have you tried ignoring any exciting behavior? Literally ignoring, no eye contact, no noise, no talking, nothing. Until the dog is calm.

How much exercise and training does he get?

 

[Curbside Prophet]

First, rule out any medical conditions that may be affecting his plumbing.

Your immediate fix is a Belly Band.

The long term fix is to identify what stimulates the urination. Your approach? Reaching for the dog? Eye contact? Touch? Leaning over the dog? You need to avoid whatever stimuli is is causing the urination as much as you can. I would recommend a certified trainer who is familiar with this type of behavior mod because there's too much in your dog's home environment that needs to be considered when prescribing a protocol.

The process will be some form of gradual exposure and counterconditioning. Depending on how compulsive the behavior is, it may take a while and hundreds of trials to effectively train an adult dog not to get so excited. I can only hope your wifey has the patience and understanding to endure.

 

[ThoseWordsAtBest]

My doxie is extremely submissive AND is an excited pee-er. His possessiveness of me creates a real problem, especially if I leave the house for any amount of time (to grab the mail or go to work) because he gets so excited when I come home he'd pee all over me, or roll over when I came to greet him and pee on himself. The quick fix was ignoring him. It's hard, especially when I love how happy he is to see me, but when I come in and he's spazzing all over the place, I walk passed him, take off my shoes and sit down, and only when he's stopped and is sitting/looking at me quizzically, I pet him. No cooing and yelling in excitement, just nice petting. No pee since then.

 

[TooneyDogs]

Two really, really important things to do....Stop talking and move slower....without eye contact, no face to face, not over the top of him or reaching for him (all threats).
You can direct him without talking....he can read your body language from across the room and will follow your intentions....you will be quite surprised at what he can do without knowing English. The harder part is actually slowing down....we tend to be reactive/jerky...arms waving around/reaching...sudden turns. Be as deliberate/smooth as possible.

 

[chrisginco]

Good Info, everyone! Yes, I've done the "It's me or the dog" bit of turning away from him until he calms down, but he'll calm down to "whining only" even if it takes a minute or so. As soon as I turn to him again, he goes "nuts" again and I'll turn away again. For whatever reason, whenever I turn back, regardless of his situation, he starts to whine and pee again. Not to be gross, but when he turns over on his back, I also get to see a somewhat "pulsating", well, you know...... I Love this big guy, but I just don't know what to do. My wife does part time dogsitting (and has for 20 years, but she's about out of ideas.) Regardless of whether it's a "treat" indoors, or coming out to get him outside from the cable (whether it's 5 minutes or 5 hours), he just goes absolutely nuts and pees on everyone.

 

[pattymac]

Sounds to me too that he's a pretty high energy dog. Is he getting lots of exercise? That should help calm him down quite a bit. May help to get rid of some of that over-excitement that he has.

 

[skelaki]

I would have him vet checked. Normally this kind of problem is a puppy problem due to them not having any control yet. If he's been cleared of any possible medical condition contributing to the problem, I'd get professional help to work on exactly what the triggers are. And I'd put him on a program of daily exercise including at least two 1 hour walks of which at least one is a power walk (dog must walk on loose lead by your side with not sniffing, lagging, pulling, marking, etc. unless you first call a break), Twice daily obedience training sessions of approximately 10-20 minutes, and a consistent practice of NILIF (Nothing in life is free). For information of nilif ,read the sticky and/or google "alpha dog boot camp" (without the quotes) .

You might also check with your vet to see if there are any meds that you could give the dog while you work on the underlying problems. And definitely invest in a few belly bands.

 

[Xeph]

The whining is (as I'm sure you know) due to stress. Why he's stressed I can't say, but he is.

Believe it or not, I've had obedience work improve this issue with some dogs. Not eliminate it, but improve it.

When I say obedience, I don't mean typical sit, down, shake, rollover...I mean serious compeition like training. The reason for this, I believe (this is just my theory) is that competitive work like this requires a WHOLE different attitude from the trainer. It requires more leadership because it's not a lackadaisacal "If he doesn't do it it's not a big deal."

I need to get NEW video of my dog looking less crappy, but here is an example of what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO5MAHiqYnQ

This requires a LOT of focus on the part of the dog.

Because you have a dog that gets overly excited, do not praise up this dog like a maniac. Keep things very quiet, calm, and talk in low tones. Do not make conversation with the dog...only give him "Yes" "Uh uh" or "Good"

"Yes" is a marker word...it tells the dog he did something right, and the moment you say yes, the dog should get a cookie. "Good" tells the dog that he is right and that he needs to keep doing what he's doing. You do not reward until after you've finished what you're doing. "Uh uh" simply tells the dog he's wrong, and needs to fix himself.

Doing more formal work with him can help with this submissive urination as he'll learn that you're a leader, not a bully (I'm not saying you are, but the dog could be viewing you this way). You are someone who is trustworthy and someone he can defer to. It just takes time.

 

[cshellenberger]

I agree with Xeph, get your dog WORKING to increase his confidence and focus. Increasing confidence WILL help the submissive peeing he's doing. It may not be 100% but it WILL help.

I'd also bring in a good positive reenforcement trainer, you can find highly qualified people here. The trainer can give you guidance we can't and help you to work through through patches. Be SURE the wife is HEAVILY involved in ALL training as you both need to be the leaders for your dog.

www.iaabc.org

www.apdt.com

 

[hulkamaniac]

How much exercise is this dog getting? From your original post it sounds like the dog spends some time outside on a tie out of some sort, but what kind of exercise does he get on a daily basis?

 

[chrisginco]

Thanks, All! This is all great info. To update everyone who were wondering about exercise, etc., here's the scoop...
1) He went to the vet a few weeks ago and got a clean bill of health on everything, so I don't think it's physical.
2) He does get lots of exercise as there is lots of empty acreage all around us. So, we go on long walks where he gets to chase lots of rabbits,etc. We also play ball with him in the yard and such.
3) He's not tied out very often. Usually it's only when I take a shower, or we're doing housework and we can't keep an eye on him (since we don't think he's completely housebroken).
4) Stressed, huh? Hmmm, I know he's very "needy" and wants to be petted constantly and I figured he was just insecure. I can't imagine what he could be stressed about, but I'll look for signs.
5) I have been talking softly to him and been using slower movements (as was suggested above), but it doesn't seem to have much effect on his behavior.
6) Once inside, if we ignore him, he'll lay by your feet or on his bed and settle down. If you go to the kitchen or whatever, he'll follow you and lay down basically wherever you are.
BTW, we had him crate trained within a few days of getting him and he also seems to be picking up commands, like "wait" when we're coming in the door and then, "OK", when it's fine for him to come in after us, so we know he's not a dummy, we just haven't been able to get over the hyper and peeing business. Hope that's enough info so if anyone has any further suggestions, they'd be appreciated. Thanks again. You guys are great!

 

[Moker]

maybe also implement nilif ?? :shrug:

 

[chrisginco]

Just read the stickies on NILIF and Alpha Dog Boot Camp. Great Stuff! We're already doing some of it, but it looks like we need to follow up better. We'll keep you all posted.
Thanks!

 

[TooneyDogs]

I have been talking softly to him and been using slower movements (as was suggested above), but it doesn't seem to have much effect on his behavior.

This can take a little time. You're showing him a new way of interacting...slower, with more self-control. At first you might only see a slight head cock/puzzlement but, it will evolve.

 

[Xeph]

The other thing is, when you're talking low and slow, be mindful of your body posture. The natural tendency of the human body is to relax, just as we want the dog to. However, because of this, you actually may end up slouching.

Stand tall and straight and only drop your head enough so the dog can see your eyes. Your posture needn't be stiff, just upright.

This is a dog that will do well with positive reinforcement, and I'm willing to bet he'll be an operant dog once you get going. Later on he may be able to handle light physical correction on nothing more than a buckle collar or vocals.

It takes time, but it works.

 

[cshellenberger]

You have a dog that just came from a shelter, he's in a new situation and his last family either gave him up, or he was taken away from him. There's no telling what he's been through. His 'needy' is caused by ANXIETY, because he doesn't know what to expect. He doesn't know if you're going to leave him to or what you want from him so he's being overly submissive. the entire situation is stressful for him.

Which test did the doctor do? Tick titre and thyroid panel are NOT in the 'standard checkup' they have to be asked for just as a glaucoma test does. Low/normal thyroid can ONLY be detected wuth a test that is sent out to a lab, the in house snap test is not sensitive enough to catch the values that can cause anxiety.

Over all though, you will see improvement in his submissive urination with training. If you give him the tools to understand what you want, he will become more confident.

Remember though, NO adversive training methods. That means choke collars, prong collars, E collars. I would also be careful about yelling at him. YOu don't want him escalating from overly submissive to fearful.

 

[skelaki]

You have a dog that just came from a shelter, he's in a new situation and his last family either gave him up, or he was taken away from him. There's no telling what he's been through. His 'needy' is caused by ANXIETY, because he doesn't know what to expect. He doesn't know if you're going to leave him to or what you want from him so he's being overly submissive. the entire situation is stressful for him.

Which test did the doctor do? Tick titre and thyroid panel are NOT in the 'standard checkup' they have to be asked for just as a glaucoma test does. Low/normal thyroid can ONLY be detected wuth a test that is sent out to a lab, the in house snap test is not sensitive enough to catch the values that can cause anxiety.

Over all though, you will see improvement in his submissive urination with training. If you give him the tools to understand what you want, he will become more confident.

Remember though, NO adversive training methods. That means choke collars, prong collars, E collars. I would also be careful about yelling at him. YOu don't want him escalating from overly submissive to fearful.

I absolutely agree with Carla on this (can you believe it?)! Although I do believe in appropriate corrections, this dog needs to be treated as if he was a puppy who has had no training and we don't correct a dog for not knowing.

 

[chrisginco]

PeePee update...

Well, not MUCH change in Dune. We've done more with the NILIF biz and there's been a bit of improvement, but we're still having a problem.
Here's an example or two: 1)Tried to teach him to "roll over" a couple of days ago and he knew I had a treat in my hand. He got VERY excited and though he did the roll over, the carpet got a soaking spray as he did so (I was able to dodge it). 2)Had him on his line outside and went to get him. He went nuts as usual. I turned away for about 2 minutes. He sat and settled, pee'd a bit and had a slight whine about every 10 seconds. When I turned back to him, he'd go nuts again and I'd turn away. He'd settle again, etc. This scenario went on for about 10 minutes and I was finally able to get him off his line. He jumped up and down (happily?) and then did a couple of whine/howls and got excited again. 3)Went to serve him dinner. He automatically sits, so I asked for him for his "paw". He whined, got excited, gladly gave me his paw, all while peeing on the kitchen floor (DRAT!) On the up side, I gave him a bath today for the first time. He didn't like the idea, but once I put him in the tub, he was actually pretty good!
Anyway, am I doing something wrong here? NILIF seems to work for some things, but like the examples above I'm not sure if it's submissive peeing or if there's another issue.
For the record, someone in a post above asked if he's had certain special tests for the problem. To be frank, I doubt it. I had the vet "check him over" after I got him from the shelter and I'm sure it was just a general once over...
Sorry for the long post, but it's hard to get all the pertinent info in a tiny post.
Thanks again!

 

[cshellenberger]

Ok, now I'd check into a belly band, they can be pretty effective for inappropriate urination, but it won't be 100%. Do get a professional involved, they can help you with the timing and be sure your technique is solid as well as be able to observe the interactions. Go to www.iaabc.org or www.apdt.com to find a qualified professional. get the tests DONE, as I said before ofrbehaioral problems are because of an underlying medical condition.