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Discussion Starter #1
I came across this today:

Pedigree dogs exposed: three years on

It's the followup to the original Pedigree dogs exposed from 2008, and it's about what has changed since then.

Originally I was impressed by that first documentary, but when I read all the critical responses I became a little less impressed. But I have to say that I'm glad that this Three years on followup seemed more nuanced to me, also talking about arguments of critics. It also feels a bit more positive to me, instead of focusing on everything that's going wrong.

It came out only a couple of days ago on the 27th of February in the UK. Anyone else already seen it? What's your opinion about this second (and last, it appears) part of Pedigree dogs exposed?
 

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I've watched it and liked it better than the first in many ways.

I was very, very sad to hear Carol state she could not longer morally recommend a Cavalier. She and I had a discussion about that 5 or 6 years ago, and she had more hope than I did then. When Jemima stated something along the lines of 'Cavaliers, from creation to ruination in less than a Century' my heart just sank (and I find myself in tears typing this).

I have been following the uproar from this program on Cavalier forums, and again the reaction of some in the breeding world disgusts me.

These judges and people at the top of the breed are still defending the use of that sire (many used him) claiming the recommendations allow the use of asymptomatic dogs. What they leave out in this spin is that the recommendations allow the use ONLY of asymptomatic OLDER dogs and ONLY with grade A girls. This dog was used with girls too young to be meaningfully tested for anything following his scan proving he conferred high risk at 16 months of age.

He was not an asymptomatic older dog - he was a young dog with syrinxes - which by the grading scheme puts him as a grade 'E', which is not to be bred from. He produced 140 puppies with 40 litters.

They are continuing, right now, on an open forum, to vilify those that spoke out, specifically Margaret claiming she knew her Champion dog, Mareve Indiana, had trouble while she was still breeding from him (that is a lie) and blaming scientists and researchers for their poor breeding decisions.

You can read the lying post from Jenny here, and those that run with it.

". . .Oh and by the way - we all know of a certain person who knew her dog had problems (NOT Bev Costello) and yet that dog sired 57 known registered litters....and that person still behaves as if they are the 'saviour' of our breed .........and hasn't made an effort to advise the people who bought those puppies that they may have problems which need diagnosing. . ."

http://www.cavaliers.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?6558-BBC-i-player-Pedigree-Dogs-Exposed/page4

Margaret's reply is on another forum, as she is not welcomed on the first.

"There is a Cavalier Breeders Forum where, in the wake of PDE2 it is being suggested that I used my Champion dog at stud despite knowing he had SM.

This is untrue and the people writing this are liars.

I have Ch. Mareve Indiana's veterinary records. They show him to be a healthy dog until old age.

The people writing these lies will need to have proof that a dog that was winning Veteran classes at Crufts and the Cavalier Club Show at nine and ten years old was known to be suffering from health problems.

If they cannot do that then they would be wise to remove these libellious remarks.

I would be grateful if any member here who is also a member of that forum would crosspost this on to the relevant thread for me.

I will be contacting the forum's owner & moderators separately."

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?40927-This-is-what-they-do-when-you-speak-out-about-health-issues


It is just sad. I have no doubt that the boxer breeder speaking out about JRD in her breed is receiving similar treatment by some.

I am glad they featured hard working wonderful breeders like the Dalmation and Bulldog breeder that are working to change things from within.

------------------------

To address the 'popular sire' comment made by Jenny toward Margaret insinuating these were unusual numbers, these are some of the popular sires of the time, and how they were used. Margaret's dog was Mareve Indiana. He was not the only one found in age to have SM, or to be siring SM progeny. These are from the KC database - UK litters only then.

Cavaliegh Alexander b. 29 Jan 1989
293 puppies from 82 litters have been registered with this dog as the sire
Lymrey Royal Reflection Of Ricksbury b. 16/01/1993
209 puppies from 58 litters have been registered with this dog as the sire.
*Lymrey Royal Scandal At Ricksbury b.16/01/1993 (littermate to above dog)
183 puppies from 51 litters have been registered with this dog as the sire
Linjato Ace Of Base b. 19/12/1993
314 puppies from 97 litters have been registered with this dog as the sire.
*Mareve Indiana b. 05/10/1992
251 puppies from 68 litters have been registered with this dog as the sire
Telvara Top Hat b. 14/02/1989 (full sibling died of epilepsy at young age – finish database)
219 puppies from 48 litters have been registered with this dog as the sire.
Telvara Karbon Kopy b. 07/06/1992 – grandson to Telvara Top Hat - three years younger.
455 puppies from 112 litters have been registered with this dog as the sire.

They also have not learned:

Maibee Montrose b. 02 Jan 2001 – Grandson of Lymrey Royal Reflection
493 puppies from 145 litters have been registered with this dog as the sire.
Pascavale Enchanted b. 08 July2001– son of Tameline Northern Dancer
392 puppies from 125 litters have been registered with this dog as the sire (more in the USA). He is the sire of Ch Beauella Radzinski of PDE fame
Aranel Cosmic b. 28 Mar 2005 - son of Miletree Nijinsky
298 puppies from 85 litters have been registered with this dog as the sire.

SOB
 

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That forums moderators and admin need to take any libelous materials off their forums, I know of forums that have been shut down and the owners SUCCESSFULLY sued over such claims. If they don't take action they are asking to pay out damages.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Wow, that's some seriously damaging stuff going on over there.

By the way, is it just me or are those numbers of puppies and litters from certain stud dogs extraordinarily high? Is it normal to use a stud dog that often? (in any breed?)

The documentary showed Sweden has certain limits, but I know in my own country there aren't limits for studs as far as I'm aware of. Bitches can only be used a certain number of times, and I think it's strange that studs can be used... limitless. But is it actually strange? Because now it seems to me that it's pretty common to use certain studs lots of times. Isn't that detrimental to the genetic make up of a breed?
 

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With so many breeders selling semen, I wouln't be at all surprised to see popular studs being over used in any breed. In fact I've seen situations where champion and Gr Champoin stud semen have ended up in the hands of puppy mills and the pups in pet stores (I think this happened recently to an Asian GrCh).
 

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Wow, that's some seriously damaging stuff going on over there.

By the way, is it just me or are those numbers of puppies and litters from certain stud dogs extraordinarily high? Is it normal to use a stud dog that often? (in any breed?)

The documentary showed Sweden has certain limits, but I know in my own country there aren't limits for studs as far as I'm aware of. Bitches can only be used a certain number of times, and I think it's strange that studs can be used... limitless. But is it actually strange? Because now it seems to me that it's pretty common to use certain studs lots of times. Isn't that detrimental to the genetic make up of a breed?
I would imagine that the limit on breeding bitches is probably more about the welfare of the particular dog rather than the breed as a whole. Not that I know this for a fact, it's just what I would guess. Having puppies can be taxing, but all a sire has to do is donate some sperm.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I would imagine that the limit on breeding bitches is probably more about the welfare of the particular dog rather than the breed as a whole. Not that I know this for a fact, it's just what I would guess. Having puppies can be taxing, but all a sire has to do is donate some sperm.
You're probably right. But in my opinion, just because a male doesn't physically wear down from providing sperm, that doesn't mean a male should be used as much as possible. It just doesn't sound like a smart thing to do.

And cshellenberger: how on earth could such a thing be possible... (about the puppy mill getting their hands on top stud semen) You'd think people would check their buyers very diligently when selling semen of a grand champion. Unless it's all about the money...
 

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You're probably right. But in my opinion, just because a male doesn't physically wear down from providing sperm, that doesn't mean a male should be used as much as possible. It just doesn't sound like a smart thing to do.
I agree completely.
 

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how on earth could such a thing be possible... (about the puppy mill getting their hands on top stud semen) You'd think people would check their buyers very diligently when selling semen of a grand champion. Unless it's all about the money...
One of the dogs on that progeny list is a Champion from a UK breeder considered reputable. He was utilized by another reputable American breeder and produced the go to stud for a breeder that was later kicked out of the AKC as he produced numerous litters of numerous breeds and it was proven he misregistered some of those litters with the wrong sire! From the UK I'm sure everything looked very above board as he was a noted producer of Champions. Many would call his operation no better than a puppymill currently and did then (non health testing large commercial kennel).

I have seen Ch dogs moved around to fall into the wrong hands. More often their offspring become the name stud at commercial operations.

SOB
 

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I know cattle sperm is sold to whomever has the cash. . .better bloodlines, higher price. But they don't screen the buyers or anything. I don't know how they handle horse AI. Is dog sperm more tightly guarded? Since there are no welfare considerations, I wouldn't think that there would be much of a screening process, but I guess that depends how protective one is of their bloodlines. I do know that a lot of puppymillers brag that they have a show champion stud. . .don't know where they get them or even whether it's true.
 

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More of Jemima tooting her own horn, and finding people to agree with her
Your evidence for this? What would be her motive?

I thought the PDE sequel was quite good. I was pleased to hear about the steps being taken by the KC, however small. For example, the dalmatian story, the banning of close-relative breeding, lessening exaggerations in breed standards, etc. I wish the AKC would hurry up and catch up!
 

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Your evidence for this? What would be her motive?
My opinion from watching it. Also my opinion that while she has some truth in it (propaganda requires at least a little truth to be believed) her motive has been obvious since the first PDE and in her blog. Especially when she ends up having to apologize because the "dead dogs" behind the show dogs end up embarassingly and provably alive and healthy
 

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Actually, I'm still having trouble deducing what you think her motive is. From where I sit, she's interested in the welfare of dogs and doesn't want to see them bred to suffer from painful ailments. What exactly do you think her motive is?
 

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Actually, I'm still having trouble deducing what you think her motive is. From where I sit, she's interested in the welfare of dogs and doesn't want to see them bred to suffer from painful ailments. What exactly do you think her motive is?
I think her motive is the destruction of the show system. I suspect that many of the people she attacks are interested in the welfare of dogs and don't want to see them bred to suffer from painful ailments. The problem lies in that not being a one generation (or two generation) issue. I don't know the ins and outs of Cavaliers, but I certainly understand breeders not wanting to talk to her, as anything sensible they say will end up on the editing room virtual floor. It's interesting how many dogs of healthy breeds she shows while talking about how damaging the system is - indicating, of course, that those dogs must have problems too.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
It's interesting how many dogs of healthy breeds she shows while talking about how damaging the system is - indicating, of course, that those dogs must have problems too.
I remember a couple of times in this second part of PDE that Borzoi were shown while someone was talking about sick and unhealthy dogs. To my knowledge, Borzoi are a pretty hardy and healthy breed, so it struck me as weird.

By the way, I'm not following her blog or anything, just read one entry about Flatcoats, and I could be totally wrong--but the impression I got is that she prefers seeing working dogs over show dogs. Maybe that's her motive?
 

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I remember a couple of times in this second part of PDE that Borzoi were shown while someone was talking about sick and unhealthy dogs. To my knowledge, Borzoi are a pretty hardy and healthy breed, so it struck me as weird.

By the way, I'm not following her blog or anything, just read one entry about Flatcoats, and I could be totally wrong--but the impression I got is that she prefers seeing working dogs over show dogs. Maybe that's her motive?
Your correct in thinking that overall Borzoi's are a very hardy and healhy breed. :)

I agree with the second part of this statment as well. I believe she likes working dogs more than show dogs but that is just how I see it.
 

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Ok, but why? If she's successful at getting her message across, what's in it for her? She's not looking to destroy the show system because she's an inherently evil person.
She doesn't have to "gain" anything for it to be worthwhile to her. She's on a crusade. She thinks breeding show dogs is wrong and as such, she's attempting to turn the public against it. I have not watched the follow up but the original, to me was extremely one sided and very much aimed at portraying anyone involved in showing dogs as uncaring when it comes to anything but winning. IMO it would have been a much better documentary if there was both talk about concerns with limited gene pools, popular sire syndrome, widespread health issues in some breeds and also breed clubs which have gone above and beyond with genetic research work, breeders who keep open health databases on all of their litters, open health registries that breeders willingly participate in, projects like the LUA Dals or the African Basenjis, etc. Of course, I don't think the purpose was to be a honest documentary about health in purebred dogs.

I have had healthy purebred dogs and unhealthy ones, although more healthy than not. My mixed breed was hypothyroid but lived into old age. Two of my three GSDs lived into old age with no serious health issues. My oldest Belgian is almost 13 and still in excellent shape, her mother is 17 with no serious health issues and is still in good shape for such an old dog. Of her grandparents, one lived to be 18 and one 16. My second oldest Belgian will be 10 in a few weeks and he's still as loud, bouncy and fun loving as ever. He's never had to see a vet for anything but vaccines and health screening. His mom is still doing well at 14 or 15 and his grandmother passed away at 16. Our Corgi will be 9 this summer and he still runs in agility at his full height. I do have a Belgian who developed a late onset eye issue but it's such a minor one that I don't really think of her as "unhealthy" - it affected breeding choices but not quality of life.
 

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I have been a huge fan of PDE and Jemima for many years now, I loved the first PDE and enjoyed the second as well. as to all the critics? a bunch of BS frankly. I have yet to hear a single VALID argument against her..nothing buts lies, denials and straw man agruments.
 
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