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It really sounds like with as many reservations as you have, you ought to keep looking, but I know how frustrating it is. I actually gave up on getting a puppy from the first breed that seemed a fit for me. I now have a puppy from my second choice breed and couldn't be happier.
I know I've thought about doing that but for me - I don't think I could compromise on the breed I've chosen - but I understand compromising if finding a good breeder is too difficult. Better to buy a breed you aren't as happy about from a good, supportive breeder than buy a breed you love from a mill.

I think today I decided to do just that and luckily enough I stumbled upon a breeder that was recommended to me by another breeder! At first the lady seemed hesitant but I chatted with her for a bit and she was a little surprised I asked about genetic testing and such so she ended up referring me to a friend of hers that has one she might be willing to let go and she's much closer by! I feel more comfortable that she was referred to me for one (Other breeders within the club think she's good which is a plus) and she has also been very responsive to me. Very open about the genetic testing and willing to talk. I don't know, this out of state breeder seemed like she just wanted me to sign the contract and not ask many questions - maybe her breeding program was decent but it's frustrating dealing with a breeder that just wants a check and doesn't offer much support beyond that. Maybe some buyers are okay with that but being that this is my first dog, I'd like some info from the breeder and would hope the breeder would be happy to hear from me as well! Both the ladies I chatted with today seemed impressed by this attitude so I think I'll be much happier buying from one of them.
 

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That's totally reasonable. If this breeder is on the high end of the price range for the breed and putting in mid-tier effort with their breeding program, then I understand moving on. I also expect higher price points to come with more value from the breeder, whether that's highly titled breeding stock, an intensive puppy raising program like Puppy Culture or Avidog, more stringent health testing and guarantees that go above and beyond what other breeders offer, etc.

I'm glad you've found some other options! Fingers crossed it all goes well.
 

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Fwiw most of your concerns are easily explained by someone wanting to have some privacy. If I'm selling something online, the buyer doesn't get to come into the compound. The product is moved to the front pad for show. The same would hold true for dogs. There's a lot of people that would like to call every agency, non profit, and terrorist organization they can find if dogs are being kept in conditions that they don't feel with their little heart are as nice as they should be.
 

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I am reacting to your post, which I feel is in very bad taste. Saying that people would call "terrorist organizations". Terrorists are not something to make jokes about. Especially for people who have actually experienced terrorists and their activities and suffered from it... and you do not know who is reading this. Also, saying "their little heart" is deliberately insulting. Your post seemed to me to be trying to provoke a response from people, which I personally don't think is appropriate on a forum. We are here to help each other and share our love of dogs, not to provoke or insult one another.

You of course don't let people buying things online come into your place to get them.
Puppies are not things.

Therefore the same does not hold true for dogs.

If a breeder is not willing to let a person come and see the kennels then they are hiding something. It is well known that this is a huge red flag and means you should stay away from that breeder.

Any good breeder who keeps the dogs in clean, well ventilated, comfortable and sanitary conditions will be happy to allow a person to come and see the kennels. This was, of course, not true in 2020. But even if the kennel owner was being abundantly cautious of covid, and I would never fault a person for that, they should be willing to show adequate photos of the facility, with proof that they are not random photos of someone else's kennels. If they won't do that....don't buy from them!
 

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I am reacting to your post, which I feel is in very bad taste. Saying that people would call "terrorist organizations". Terrorists are not something to make jokes about. Especially for people who have actually experienced terrorists and their activities and suffered from it... and you do not know who is reading this. Also, saying "their little heart" is deliberately insulting. Your post seemed to me to be trying to provoke a response from people, which I personally don't think is appropriate on a forum. We are here to help each other and share our love of dogs, not to provoke or insult one another.

You of course don't let people buying things online come into your place to get them.
Puppies are not things.

Therefore the same does not hold true for dogs.

If a breeder is not willing to let a person come and see the kennels then they are hiding something. It is well known that this is a huge red flag and means you should stay away from that breeder.

Any good breeder who keeps the dogs in clean, well ventilated, comfortable and sanitary conditions will be happy to allow a person to come and see the kennels. This was, of course, not true in 2020. But even if the kennel owner was being abundantly cautious of covid, and I would never fault a person for that, they should be willing to show adequate photos of the facility, with proof that they are not random photos of someone else's kennels. If they won't do that....don't buy from them!
All I meant was that I don't need someone calling PETA and having people show up committing crimes and violence against me because somebody doesn't like the fact that my dogs are chewing on bull penis instead of a kale wrap. That's the kind of thing that causes me to not invite people past the pad.
 

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Puppies are not things.
This from the dictionary
Definition of thing

1: an object or entity not precisely designated or capable of being designated


Now stop creating arguments out of thin air, I offered an explanation that I can relate to so OP can use OP's own brain to process information from multiple sources before making an assessment of the situation.
 

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As puppies are designated (as animals, mammals, canines, etc) they do not meet that definition of "thing". And it is not relevant to the discussion.

The problem I see is that you make very broad statements that suggest but don't flat out state your views of training, dog ownership, etc, and then when someone else infers your implied view, you backtrack and take offense - denying that was your implication.

There is another thread in which you very clearly stated that dogs are property and therefore breeders can do as they wish and anyone who doesn't like it can pound sand. This attitude is very old fashioned and there are now laws protecting dogs (and other animals) from abusive and neglectful owners. The perception of dogs as property is dying and the perception of dogs as sentient creatures is growing. If the only concern you have is that someone will complain that you give your dog a bull penis, then you can rest assured you are in no danger of being cited or arrested for dog abuse, endangerment (unless the penis is still attached to the bull), or neglect (unless that is the only thing you give your dog).

However, if you are worried that people will report you for caging your dogs 24/7, using cattle prods, allowing your dogs to lie in feces, not providing necessary medical care, engaging in dog fighting, etc, then you have plenty of reason to be afraid to let a potential puppy buyer see your facilities.

If you are somewhere between those extremes and perhaps use shock collars or other similar training tools, your dogs and puppies are housed in kennels or outdoors rather than in the home, etc. Then sure, there are people who will disagree with your methods, but those things in and of themselves are not going to get you cited or arrested.

As a potential buyer, it is important to know how the puppies and parents are treated, housed, trained, etc. If you refuse to show that to me, then I WILL assume that you are hiding something bad. You have the right to deny a buyer access, but you will lose a lot of buyers. And most people will not recommend you as a source for puppies. And if, as with this thread, someone asks if this is a good breeder to buy from, you will get a majority of "if they won't let you see the facilities, then go elsewhere".
 
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As puppies are designated (as animals, mammals, canines, etc) they do not meet that definition of "thing". And it is not relevant to the discussion.

The problem I see is that you make very broad statements that suggest but don't flat out state your views of training, dog ownership, etc, and then when someone else infers your implied view, you backtrack and take offense - denying that was your implication.

There is another thread in which you very clearly stated that dogs are property and therefore breeders can do as they wish and anyone who doesn't like it can pound sand. This attitude is very old fashioned and there are now laws protecting dogs (and other animals) from abusive and neglectful owners. The perception of dogs as property is dying and the perception of dogs as sentient creatures is growing. If the only concern you have is that someone will complain that you give your dog a bull penis, then you can rest assured you are in no danger of being cited or arrested for dog abuse, endangerment (unless the penis is still attached to the bull), or neglect (unless that is the only thing you give your dog).

However, if you are worried that people will report you for caging your dogs 24/7, using cattle prods, allowing your dogs to lie in feces, not providing necessary medical care, engaging in dog fighting, etc, then you have plenty of reason to be afraid to let a potential puppy buyer see your facilities.

If you are somewhere between those extremes and perhaps use shock collars or other similar training tools, your dogs and puppies are housed in kennels or outdoors rather than in the home, etc. Then sure, there are people who will disagree with your methods, but those things in and of themselves are not going to get you cited or arrested.

As a potential buyer, it is important to know how the puppies and parents are treated, housed, trained, etc. If you refuse to show that to me, then I WILL assume that you are hiding something bad. You have the right to deny a buyer access, but you will lose a lot of buyers. And most people will not recommend you as a source for puppies. And if, as with this thread, someone asks if this is a good breeder to buy from, you will get a majority of "if they won't let you see the facilities, then go elsewhere".
There is another thread in which you very clearly stated that dogs are property and therefore breeders can do as they wish and anyone who doesn't like it can pound sand.

They are, it's law.



As puppies are designated (as animals, mammals, canines, etc) they do not meet that definition of "thing". And it is not relevant to the discussion.

Then stop bringing it up. It's the way I used it, correctly, a group of unspecified things and including puppies, goats , whatever property I want to sell on the line.


f "if they won't let you see the facilities, then go elsewhere".

Okay, move along.




However, if you are worried that people will report you for caging your dogs 24/7, using cattle prods, allowing your dogs to lie in feces, not providing necessary medical care, engaging in dog fighting, etc, then you have plenty of reason to be afraid to let a potential puppy buyer see your facilities.


That isn't okay, and doesn't happen, but some of which are ambiguous such as "lying in feces" someone sees a land mine and reports "lying in feces" to their friends pitchfork mob, now I've got work to do.




If the only concern you have is that someone will complain that you give your dog a bull penis, then you can rest assured you are in no danger of being cited or arrested for dog abuse, endangerment (unless the penis is still attached to the bull), or neglect (unless that is the only thing you give your dog).


I'm not worried about legal trouble. People rarely go the legal route when the legal route doesn't suite them.







I don't know why everyone's up in arms ad I literally offered OP a possible explanation as to why the seller would be less than transparent. He or she has a right to privacy. And if you don't respect that, "pound sand"
 

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They are, it's law.
This is quite literally true. And a part of that is a good thing. It means my dog belongs to me, and if someone steals him I can bring theft charges against that person. If someone kills him on purpose I can being legal action against them. I get to choose how I train my dog, where he goes or does not go and so on because I own him. It also means I am responsible for him , taking care of him properly, and I am going to be held liable if he harms someone or their property.

By the same token, children are property. If someone takes your kid or kills him you can bring charges against that person. You get to say if the kid goes to this or that school or gets to watch TV or not. Same thing.

However, in both of these cases, the property is a living, feeling, sentient being. And if that being is abused, charges can be brought against you and you can be fined, imprisoned, or have the property (child or dog) taken away from you permanently.

Your car is your property too. But no one is going to care if you take a sledgehammer to it.
That is the difference.

Sure, anyone can do as they wish with their property. But some things don't matter, because it is an inanimate object. Other things do matter, because it is a living sentient being with feelings and if that being is abused it is wrong, and illegal. That is also the law.

Now, to be clear, I am not the argumentative type and was not, and am not, trying to argue. Just to clarify and expand on the meaning of terms here.

And the main reason your post angered me was as I said: making jokes about terrorists is in the worst of bad taste and really should be avoided. And deliberately saying things like "their little hearts" is diminishing and impolite. Let's all be polite to one another.
 

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This is quite literally true. And a part of that is a good thing. It means my dog belongs to me, and if someone steals him I can bring theft charges against that person. If someone kills him on purpose I can being legal action against them. I get to choose how I train my dog, where he goes or does not go and so on because I own him. It also means I am responsible for him , taking care of him properly, and I am going to be held liable if he harms someone or their property.

By the same token, children are property. If someone takes your kid or kills him you can bring charges against that person. You get to say if the kid goes to this or that school or gets to watch TV or not. Same thing.

However, in both of these cases, the property is a living, feeling, sentient being. And if that being is abused, charges can be brought against you and you can be fined, imprisoned, or have the property (child or dog) taken away from you permanently.

Your car is your property too. But no one is going to care if you take a sledgehammer to it.
That is the difference.

Sure, anyone can do as they wish with their property. But some things don't matter, because it is an inanimate object. Other things do matter, because it is a living sentient being with feelings and if that being is abused it is wrong, and illegal. That is also the law.

Now, to be clear, I am not the argumentative type and was not, and am not, trying to argue. Just to clarify and expand on the meaning of terms here.

And the main reason your post angered me was as I said: making jokes about terrorists is in the worst of bad taste and really should be avoided. And deliberately saying things like "their little hearts" is diminishing and impolite. Let's all be polite to one another.
 
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