[Shah]

Hello everyone. . . .Today I wanna share my ideas here. So we have a long list of purebred dogs today recognized by major kennel clubs. We exhibit our dogs in shows. This helps a lot the people who are not aware about the exact characteristics of these breeds also. But as every coin has two sides. Now-a-days a large number of dog owners is insisting & leading in the direction which developes the show quality dogs only. Now the dogs don't have that stamina to fulfill the purpose for which they were bred. Although all the purebred dogs are not show quality dogs, yet the show ring winner dogs are more valued if compared to actually working group. The dogs are losing their immunity gradually. For example I've seen many show winner GSD who can't survive without air conditioning system. They can't stop any intruder in their territory. I'm not saying that the GSD only has this kind of energy level now, neither saying that the working dogs don't win the shows. I'm talking about the majority of show winner dogs. I believe that we should pay attention to increase the capacity of the working dog breeds like shepherds, hounds, terriers etc.

Once I visited a milk products dairy at a village in Punjab, India. They had about 350 cows & much valued horses also. Obviously they needed excellent protection dogs who could not only keep a sharp eye over the territory but also could knock down the intruder violently if needed. For this purpose they kept two German Shepherd dogs. Those GSD's were kept in an average sized cage in daytime & set free at nights. I really appreciate the stamina of those dogs, they observe whole territory which was spread in hectares. I believe that nobody could even dare to peep into the boundary walls of the farm. Because those GSD were excellent sniffers & could trace any unnatural thing happening in any corner of the farm. Moreover the two guard dogs often jumped upon the boundary wall (6 feet) to observe the area but never stepped out of that wall. Moreover they could lead & control the free horses while they are running fast on a daily basis. Both dogs were muscular because of homemade healthy diet. One of them 24'' another one who was more aggresive towards strangers was 26'' at withers.
The most astonishing thing is, both guards never seen any trainer. When I visited the farm, those were in their cage. I was not aware of it because the cage was covered partially by some old jute sack, but they were supervising my presence. As soon as I raised my hand to touch the a horse there, the bigger dog growled angrily & knocked on the cage gate repeatedly untill I didn't leave that place. You all can imagine that what they could do if they were not in the cage.

This is called the breed stamina & tendency to protect. Only aggresion isn't enough, the willingness to protect or work also should be there.
The dairy farm owner developed the stamina of his dogs according to his needs.I kept a GSD. Actually my friend wanted a brave dog who could protect his farms from 'Nilgai' (a cow like wild beast). Because the mongrel dogs couldn't do that. He asked me to arrange a guard dog because I'd been keeping dogs at my farm for last 8 year. I'm not any professional trainer or breeder. However, I brought one month old GSD pup from a village in Punjab. I took care about diet for the pup & his exercise.He was 24'' at six months age. At that time he could jump easily over 6 feet. The daily exercise duration was about 6 hours, three hours in morning, three in evening. This exercise included long walks, jogging, high jumps, catching the chunks in air, fetching the toy from water, finding out the tennis ball among the intricate roots of plants & yeah ! running after the thrown ball about 100 metres away. After 6 months I gave the pup to my friend. Now he is 5 years & 8 months old. He drives the Wild beast away at night & leaves them about 1-2 km. far from farm because my friend doesn't have high boundary walls around the farm.
At first when I handed over the Panther (GSD's name), to my friend, he was surprised to see his dauntless nature & his diet as well. But now he is proud of owning such a nice breed. At night, Panther goes upstairs in the house & observes the farms. If any mishappening seems in the farm then immediately comes downstairs & barks aloud. Then my friend sets him free in the farm & he finishes his work.

The most important thing that all these three GSD aren't forced to work so hard. They've been made habitual of this job since puppyhood. Now the thing is, if these dogs were dog show winners, could they perform this task , .. . . . The answer you know.Then why we are making the excellent working breeds only 'showpiece'. . . Again I'd say that I'm not against the dog shows but the job which could be done by purebreds in old days, can't be performed by a major of individuals today. Because we've reduced the working capacity of the shepherds, hounds etc. purebreeds.Some of you may say that the requirements have been changed now. To be honest, I don't have info about other countries but in Indian villages, people still prefer the aggresive dogs who could stop any wild animal in their territory & could kill them if needed. They don't own the dogs to exhibit them.
At last I want to say that definitely the farm guard dogs are not much in demand, people want a pet. But the working dog requirement has not been ended totally. It would be best if there could be seperate competition for show lines & actually working dogs (as in Seiger show in Germany).Otherwise soon our dogs will be sitting in AC rooms, & we'll have to guard with a long stick in hand.

(All these ideas are my personal. If I hurt somebody's feelings or thoughts, then I really apologize for that.)
Thanks for your precious time. . . .

Shah. . .

 

[Equinox]

Interesting anecdotes and all in all a post I can agree with. Now, when you say "actual working dogs", how exactly do you plan to go about classifying that?

Clearly, the wish for the preservation of working ability in dogs once bred for work is ideal... however, you must realize that there will always be people who wish to settle for immediate satisfactions in the show line, working line, and pet line worlds. They will be more enamored with the bragging rights associated with high ratings in show and sport, or the acquirement of "rare" colors, and that will cloud the vision of breeding the total, all around working dog with correct conformation.

I understand what you are saying, because I have had similar experiences with my GSD. He is driven, resilient, fearless, athletic, functional, and healthy. His defense drives are innate, but they do not overwhelm him to the point where obedience is cast aside. He will spring up to challenge a threat, but back down at my okay - no training needed. I am just unsure of how your proposition to start a "working" class for dogs within a show will benefit the working breeds overall and promote the drive and instincts you mentioned.

 

[Spicy1_VV]

It depends on the breed IMO. Pit Bulls which win in the show ring can still have strength, stamina, ect. Winning in the ring doesn't take away the dogs natural ability or traits. Many can do their original work, sure some would quit or not have good ability but it goes the same with game bred dogs but owners don't find out if their dogs will fight because it is illegal in the US and it is a cruel bloodsport. However many do dog sports which is something physical and also do work Pits ate capable of many weight pull, agility, dock diving, police work, hog catch, schutzhund and much more including those which are show dogs some could also work and others actually do.
So it really depends I know working Kangals which are also exhibited in the show ring. The same for Ovtcharkas.

 

[RaeganW]

Like begets like.

In other words, don't expect a dog to get a Schutzhund III title (or useful boundary instinct, or the desire to go pick up a duck, or whatever test of mettle you deem necessary for a dog to count as breedworthy) if the past six generations have gone from the show ring to the whelping box to the couch.

Form and function are meaningless without eachother.

A dog who has the heart to work twelve years but goes lame in five is just as criminal as the dog that will be sound at fifteen but will spend every day of those 15 fearful and neurotic.

 

[RaeganW]

I am just unsure of how your proposition to start a "working" class for dogs within a show will benefit the working breeds overall and promote the drive and instincts you mentioned.

Actually, many breed clubs do this. You generally only see it at specialties, but often times there will be a class for "working" dogs to compete and get special recognition. Toller specialties have a Hunting Dog/Bitch class for dogs that have a hunting title. If Marsh is ready, in June we'll be going to a show that has a competition for dogs entered in field - the dogs go into the breed ring straight from the pond!

A friend of mine is showing her Basenji at a specialty this weekend, and they have recognition for lure coursing dogs as well as dogs from African import stock (which her young dog is, and I think one of her older ones too.)

Typically, the problems people think exist lie at the far end of the extreme. Most dog shows don't look like the ones they show on television. Very few people compete at that level and it doesn't have as much impact on the rest of the crowd as you would think. The breed club level is really where decisions are made.

 

[Equinox]

Actually, many breed clubs do this. You generally only see it at specialties, but often times there will be a class for "working" dogs to compete and get special recognition. Toller specialties have a Hunting Dog/Bitch class for dogs that have a hunting title. If Marsh is ready, in June we'll be going to a show that has a competition for dogs entered in field - the dogs go into the breed ring straight from the pond!

A friend of mine is showing her Basenji at a specialty this weekend, and they have recognition for lure coursing dogs as well as dogs from African import stock (which her young dog is, and I think one of her older ones too.)

Typically, the problems people think exist lie at the far end of the extreme. Most dog shows don't look like the ones they show on television. Very few people compete at that level and it doesn't have as much impact on the rest of the crowd as you would think. The breed club level is really where decisions are made.

Yes, I am very well aware of this. Under the SV, you cannot earn certain show ratings without a Schutzhund title. Unfortunately, while the idea is a good one, it has not (in my opinion) successfully helped preserve overall working dog qualities in the breed.

 

[+two]

Like begets like.

In other words, don't expect a dog to get a Schutzhund III title (or useful boundary instinct, or the desire to go pick up a duck, or whatever test of mettle you deem necessary for a dog to count as breedworthy) if the past six generations have gone from the show ring to the whelping box to the couch.

Form and function are meaningless without eachother.

A dog who has the heart to work twelve years but goes lame in five is just as criminal as the dog that will be sound at fifteen but will spend every day of those 15 fearful and neurotic.

+++++ Nicely said.

If you read the breed descriptions of many 'working' dogs, they should be kept in working condition and show that they are capable of handling the demands. I believe that some dogs should also 'show' characteristics of the work they were bred for...

example: A Brazilian Mastiff (Fila Brasileiro) who shows aggression towards a judge is not faulted and the reaction is considered proof of temperament. Also, when run through the ring, they should show to be in condition to guard property.

In general though, i agree with Raegan. Breeds who have 'show' and 'field' types have basically two different dogs, IMO. Show dogs who look lovely and field dogs who work. If you want a nice companion, go for the show lines. If you want a working partner, go for the field lines.

IME, people who really need working dogs don't go looking at the dog shows for studs/bitches. They go to the field/farm/wherever.

 

[Equinox]

If you want a nice companion, go for the show lines. If you want a working partner, go for the field lines.

I wanted a nice companion and I went for working lines. Funnily enough, that's worked out for me very well! Likewise, I have known multiple people who've owned working companions bred from show lines. The qualities that solely make a successful show dog does equate to any better of a companion than a working bred dog does. Then add in the fact that not everyone has the same criteria for the ideal companion...

 

[Spicy1_VV]

I'd agree besides a few exceptions you get what you breed for. Though you don't exactly have to breed for schutzhund to achieve a title.
There are LGDs which go from guarding stock to the show ring just fine. Then when they get home it's back to work.
I think in several breeds you have working and sport dogs that compete in conformation.

 

[Shah]

What is this 'actually working dog'
:- By 'working dog breed' I mean the dog breeds which were developed for some special purpose and needs, for some energetic work outside rather than sitting on the couch in drawing room . . . .there are many breeds that are called 'working' because their breed falls under 'Working Dog Group' category by AKC. But I think that the individuals who are really doing the work for which they were bred are 'actual working dogs' both by breed and by job.
The reason why I'm emphasizing about really working dogs is that now a days some of breeders advertise their litter with tags like 'show quality' 'dog show champions bloodlnes'etc. to attract people who don't know much about the breeds. They buy those pups because they thought that these pups are from champion bloodlines, so will perform better. But the fact in India is that the a number of better performers have not seen any show ring.
So these dogs should be exhibited in show ring. If they participate in shows then there'll be two categories, one is the best dog of breed by appearence & second, the best dog of breed by both physical standards and by working ability.
How it will help ?
The people with less knowledge of critical breed classification will have two options when looking for a champion bloodline pups:
#1 is show lines who can be excellent pets because of their friendly temperment.
#2 the 'actually working dogs' who have not only the appearance of that particular breed but also the working stamina & efficiency to work in tough conditions. They can be helpful for guarding farms, factories, herding cattle, personal protection dog etc.
This classification will help in selective breeding acording the type.
At present there isn't a lot difference between these two types but I believe that this difference can be greater or may be the working dog breeds become the one of the rarest types & we'll find them in distant villages. Then we'll start making efforts to save them. Some dog lovers will import them anyhow. Again housebreaking, . . exhibition in dog shows, people appreciation, keeping as pet. . .working dog becomes couch potato. , .losing the working ability. Again the same cycle & start searching another alternative. . . . .
The people who want energetic dogs will buy a champion bloodline pup. . . .start a professional dog training course. . . then will get a well trained dog for herding, protection etc. purpose. We'll have to arrange special training for the thing which was there in dog breed itself years ago.
Will it be a wise thing . . .
I don't think so, or may be there is some other aspect that I've not seen yet.

 

[RaeganW]

So these dogs should be exhibited in show ring. If they participate in shows then there'll be two categories, one is the best dog of breed by appearence & second, the best dog of breed by both physical standards and by working ability.

How precisely do you suggest working ability be measured in a 50x50 ring, with two minutes exam time per dog?

 

[+two]

How precisely do you suggest working ability be measured in a 50x50 ring, with two minutes exam time per dog?

I agree with Raegan. Although your proposal makes sense in theory, it is already in practice (just not under one venue). People who want certain working qualities, say sheep herding, will chose a pup/stock from lines that have achieved generations of titles. Those same lines may not (though some do) have conformation titles, but for someone who wants a 'real working dog', they will be looking for the specific herding titles.

I am not sure if it exists, but I do think there should be some sort of 'best breed representative' award to a dog who has both conformation and working titles. Also, IMO, many of the true 'working stock' are not appropriate for the average dog owner. More people now need dogs to be good companions and house pets, and could care less if they perform the function they were originally bred for.

 

[Equinox]

But I think that the individuals who are really doing the work for which they were bred are 'actual working dogs' both by breed and by job.

Yes, but how does one go about setting the criteria for what is and is not a working dog? Is a Border Collie working as a psychiatric service dog a working dog? A German Shepherd that herds cattle? An American Pit Bull Terrier that does search and rescue? What about a dog that serves as a watchdog?

Additionally, when entering such working dogs to be shown against other working dogs, it may be simple to provide proof that a dog is a working police dog... but what about the farm hand dog? A dog that tends or herds as a job is also a working dog, but what documents must be provided to show that the dog is truly a working dog, and not a dog that went through a Herding Instinct Test once or twice for fun?

The people with less knowledge of critical breed classification will have two options when looking for a champion bloodline pups:
#1 is show lines who can be excellent pets because of their friendly temperment.
#2 the 'actually working dogs' who have not only the appearance of that particular breed but also the working stamina & efficiency to work in tough conditions. They can be helpful for guarding farms, factories, herding cattle, personal protection dog etc.
This classification will help in selective breeding acording the type.

Not to put words in your mouth, but are you fully supporting and encouraging the promotion of separate lines within one breed? Quite honestly, I do not care to water down a breed, or breed into the extremes, to satisfy a pet, show, or sport market. I want the breed for what it is and what it should be, and a good German Shepherd should possess excellent character, functional structure, solid nerves, and working ability... the qualities that make for a good pet AND a good working dog. These qualities are not, and should never be, mutually exclusive.

keeping as pet. . .working dog becomes couch potato. , .losing the working ability.

My pet dog is not becoming a couch potato, I promise you that. He has a great deal of similarities to the dogs you described in your original post. Also, many of the dogs I've known with working dog qualities and drives are also pets. While I absolutely agree that to keep a dog working is the ideal way to confirm working ability, non-working dogs can still tested and bred to maintain such ability in the breed. I do not see Schutzhund as work (not in the way that I see tending sheep regularly on a farm, working as service dogs, police dogs, etc.), but I still believe that someone with the experience and knowledge of the breed, and working dogs in general, can use Schutzhund as a working test for the German Shepherd Dog.

How precisely do you suggest working ability be measured in a 50x50 ring, with two minutes exam time per dog?

x 2 :clap2:

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Shah, what exactly is your experience in showing, training, working, and breeding dogs? What breeds? How many working titles? How many CHs? How many litters?

 

[RaeganW]

Yes, but how does one go about setting the criteria for what is and is not a working dog? Is a Border Collie working as a psychiatric service dog a working dog? A German Shepherd that herds cattle? An American Pit Bull Terrier that does search and rescue? What about a dog that serves as a watchdog?

Additionally, when entering such working dogs to be shown against other working dogs, it may be simple to provide proof that a dog is a working police dog... but what about the farm hand dog? A dog that tends or herds as a job is also a working dog, but what documents must be provided to show that the dog is truly a working dog, and not a dog that went through a Herding Instinct Test once or twice for fun?

...

While I absolutely agree that to keep a dog working is the ideal way to confirm working ability, non-working dogs can still tested and bred to maintain such ability in the breed. I do not see Schutzhund as work (not in the way that I see tending sheep regularly on a farm, working as service dogs, police dogs, etc.), but I still believe that someone with the experience and knowledge of the breed, and working dogs in general, can use Schutzhund as a working test for the German Shepherd Dog.

Yes, the difference between sport and work is important to keep in mind. Sport is easier to quantify, but generally depends more on training than instinct. Training does not get passed on, instinct does. Training can mask temperamental problems, but the process of training can illuminate them.

I will concede that there is a problem of education. The average buyer think AKC papers are an indication of quality, and that there is a direct relationship between number of show champions in the pedigree and the quality of the puppy. But no one who is actually active in conformation showing or breeding show dogs is under any delusions about what the show ring is and is not. It measures exactly one thing: how a dog conforms to a written standard. It does exactly, and only, that.

 

[Equinox]

Yes, the difference between sport and work is important to keep in mind. Sport is easier to quantify, but generally depends more on training than instinct. Training does not get passed on, instinct does. Training can mask temperamental problems, but the process of training can illuminate them.

Quoted because this is such an awesome, well worded summary.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Shah, what exactly is your experience in showing, training, working, and breeding dogs? What breeds? How many working titles? How many CHs? How many litters?

 

[Shah]

How precisely do you suggest working ability be measured in a 50x50 ring, with two minutes exam time per dog?

It would be extremely ridiculous if I say to measure dog's working capacity within 2 minutes. Because its not necessary that a dog who wins 100 meters race, will win marathon or long type of race. There should be two different category dogs so the competitions also should be of two type & I think that the working dog event may take at least two hours. It will be including various kind of activities which can express the will power of the dog to work hard & the stamina as well & I hope that anybody who has ever been engaged in the 'rough & tough' type of sports with dogs, can guess that which activities can be good event for this purpose.

 

[Pawzk9]

It would be extremely ridiculous if I say to measure dog's working capacity within 2 minutes. Because its not necessary that a dog who wins 100 meters race, will win marathon or long type of race. There should be two different category dogs so the competitions also should be of two type & I think that the working dog event may take at least two hours. It will be including various kind of activities which can express the will power of the dog to work hard & the stamina as well & I hope that anybody who has ever been engaged in the 'rough & tough' type of sports with dogs, can guess that which activities can be good event for this purpose.

I have to agree that it would be useful to know your experience with breeding, working and showing, to see where you are coming from. (Though I would tend to agree that showing is only one part of the equation)

 

[RaeganW]

It would be extremely ridiculous if I say to measure dog's working capacity within 2 minutes. Because its not necessary that a dog who wins 100 meters race, will win marathon or long type of race. There should be two different category dogs so the competitions also should be of two type & I think that the working dog event may take at least two hours. It will be including various kind of activities which can express the will power of the dog to work hard & the stamina as well & I hope that anybody who has ever been engaged in the 'rough & tough' type of sports with dogs, can guess that which activities can be good event for this purpose.

Funnily enough, there exist venues to evaluate working ability. Schutzhund. Herding. Field Trials. The America Temperament Test Society. Even Agility, Obedience, and heck even Flyball can be used to evaluate a dog's working ability. You do run into the problem that at the highest levels, these sports because so point orientated that the dog's ability isn't as big a factor as the trainers.

An Schutzhund example, told to me third hand. For national level competitveness, you want a dog that works mainly in prey drive not defense/fight drive. You want a dog that views fighting with the helper as a game so you can direct his actions more precisely. A dog that is truly fighting the helper is going to be harder to control to get those last couple of style points.

But they are still useful for getting information about a dog. A dog has to have a basic level of stability to not fall to pieces on the Schutzhund field, for example. A title doesn't prove anything, but seeing the dog perform might. Watching him train would be better. Training him yourself better than that.

No system is going to be perfect, and as many valid complaints against the current conformation standard there are, this isn't a problem with the system. It's a problem of education. Just like papers don't mean anything themselves, titles don't mean anything themselves. You can't breed solely on the names in the pedigree. You need to know the dogs themselves.

What? Those are sports, you say? You want to measure real work? Well, ignoring the fact that the number of people who legitimately need a dog for real work is very small (and they aren't the ones buying dogs because they are from "champion lines") real working ability is even HARDER to measure objectively and can't be done in anything close to a short enough amount of time to get through many dogs in one day.

One thing I would like to see more widespread is conformation certificates. The Golden Retriever Club of America has a good system. They get a judge to evaluate a bunch of dogs against the standard and say "Yep, that's a sound Golden Retriever," or "Nope, unsound and untypey." I think they need so many good evaluations by a couple of different people. It's the difference between field trials (competitive) and hunt tests (non-competitve, measured against a standard).

One thing I would l