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Discussion starter · #41 ·
Why are you considering a pit bull? What made you hone in on this breed as a possible addition to your life?
I'm fond of the big hearted joie de vivre pits have towards life in general. I also like the fact that next to the Akita they are the dog that readily springs to mind when I think of the great loyalty that man's best friend is capable of.
 
Wow you pegged her very good just from photos/expressions. The things I like about her. Spunk, biddability, intelligence, drive, problem solving skills, she's in tune with me, and just her overall personality. Of course I like her conformation too.
I think working with rescue pits has greatly benefitted my ability to assess a dog both in confo and in temperment. because in rescue you see a lot of extremes and everything in between...from nice temperment dogs with ghastly builds to terror dogs with fantastic builds to terror dogs with ghastly builds to nice temperment dogs with fantastic builds and every variation thereof..you learn their little quirks...like that funny slight head tilt that tells you the dog is calmly assessing the situation or the intent, ears forward stare that means "Im all business." for example.

Im taking that experience plus hours of studying the different standards and a gajillion photos online into being a noobie at shows.

My goal is to develop a really sharp eye. to be able to pick out the VERY BEST dogs that are to be had at a glance.

Once I've got that...Im gonna start learning more about handling show dogs and train for performance events. add to that the fact im in college studying biology(looking to go into some genetics and behavior studies and a vet tech cert somewhere in there) and you know where this is going Spicy. :)

if im gonna do it...im gonna do it not just right...im gonna do it superbly. they deserve it.

Another of her progeny now I'm curious as to which.
im gonna flip back through your pic threads and find that dog.

Oh I see what you mean with the tallness.
I figure..if faced with two substandard choices...go with the one who can perform better. the tall dog would get "more bang for the buck" energy wise.



Lonerider

see books by Louis Colby, Richard Stratton(even though he's a bit of a dweeber...he has some good points) I heard Bert Sorrells is working on a book too...should be an interesting read, and I cant remember the other one I was thinking of...I think it might have been Armitage but I don't want to say it was that one for certain..

heck...google "Rios Pit Bulls" and look at the informational pages...ignore the dogs themselves...they're beefed up fatties...but their history pages, info pages and the list of books is good. and I don't have Ray Fox's website on hand but Ill look and bring it back.
 
I think working with rescue pits has greatly benefitted my ability to assess a dog both in confo and in temperment. because in rescue you see a lot of extremes and everything in between...from nice temperment dogs with ghastly builds to terror dogs with fantastic builds to terror dogs with ghastly builds to nice temperment dogs with fantastic builds and every variation thereof..you learn their little quirks...like that funny slight head tilt that tells you the dog is calmly assessing the situation or the intent, ears forward stare that means "Im all business." for example.

Im taking that experience plus hours of studying the different standards and a gajillion photos online into being a noobie at shows.

My goal is to develop a really sharp eye. to be able to pick out the VERY BEST dogs that are to be had at a glance.

Once I've got that...Im gonna start learning more about handling show dogs and train for performance events. add to that the fact im in college studying biology(looking to go into some genetics and behavior studies and a vet tech cert somewhere in there) and you know where this is going Spicy. :)

if im gonna do it...im gonna do it not just right...im gonna do it superbly. they deserve it.
I never looked at working with rescues like that but I agree. It goes along with every other dog, you learn something from each one.

You have better goals and patience then most.

im gonna flip back through your pic threads and find that dog.
Yeah let me know, I'm just curious now.

Jaxon, Storm, Rubia, Five, Bella......

I figure..if faced with two substandard choices...go with the one who can perform better. the tall dog would get "more bang for the buck" energy wise.
For me if all things are equal elsewhere then I'd lean towards the taller dog perhaps. Better reach, longer stride reasons. If there were other differences though I might go for the shorter dog. I really don't like the overly rangy, lanky, many of whom tend to be the fine boned dogs.

Fine bone was/is becoming a problem with some, from one extreme of heavy bone to fine bone, either is a problem. Hank pretty much agreed with this a few years back. Think he even said there would be some mention of it in one of the past judges seminar, but can't remember. Sometimes we do start to see certain faults become more common in the show ring but it is something that needs to be kept on top of. A dog with fine bone structure could be more likely to have fractures because the bone can be easily become when it is too small.

There is one dog which has pretty good structure but few conformation faults, she is kind of short also but I'd pick her over some of the taller dogs I know. It is so hard for me to chose without actual dogs in front of me.

Lonerider

see books by Louis Colby, Richard Stratton(even though he's a bit of a dweeber...he has some good points) I heard Bert Sorrells is working on a book too...should be an interesting read, and I cant remember the other one I was thinking of...I think it might have been Armitage but I don't want to say it was that one for certain..

heck...google "Rios Pit Bulls" and look at the informational pages...ignore the dogs themselves...they're beefed up fatties...but their history pages, info pages and the list of books is good. and I don't have Ray Fox's website on hand but Ill look and bring it back.
Yeah Armitage has a book out there. 30yrs with fighting dogs

There is also Joe Colby's book on APBT/history of fighting dogs

There are many very interesting reads.

On the whole height tall vs short, other then the UKC/AKC dogs being my taller dogs on average, all I really have other then that are the Stratton dogs. They are not overly rangy IMO, but have that good balance about them. Also good movers, quick, great wind and agile. My 7yr old can run circles around younger dogs and is the quickest dog on a flirtpole I've ever had (its a real workout for me). Anyway the rest of long ADBA pedigrees are not tall at all. As to the point of ADBA dogs being too tall and close to "american bulldogs" in appearance.
 
Discussion starter · #44 ·
Did you know that the Pitbull (see the epic story of Sergeant Stubby, just one of many Pits who served in the US Army, albeit unofficially) was once a symbol of the US Army. Army history is full of stories of these steadfast and loyal companions who would not abandon wounded human comrades in their units throughout many of America's wars.

Sadly at least two Army posts have banned Pits in housing: Fort Riley, KS and Fort Carson, CO.

If you ask me that is unfair and cruel treatment of some of America's veterans...
 
Did you know that the Pitbull (see the epic story of Sergeant Stubby, just one of many Pits who served in the US Army, albeit unofficially) was once a symbol of the US Army. Army history is full of stories of these steadfast and loyal companions who would not abandon wounded human comrades in their units throughout many of America's wars.

Sadly at least two Army posts have banned Pits in housing: Fort Riley, KS and Fort Carson, CO.

If you ask me that is unfair and cruel treatment of some of America's veterans...
yup :D Stubs was the man...I have a poster of him by bed.

can you tell I like Pit Bulls? :p
 
Discussion starter · #46 ·
^^I can tell you like Pits.

Pits (the APBT and AmStaff), the Shepherds (Malinois and GSD) and the Northern Breeds (Siberian Husky and Alaskan Malamutes) are my favorite breed types.
 
Did you know that the Pitbull (see the epic story of Sergeant Stubby, just one of many Pits who served in the US Army, albeit unofficially) was once a symbol of the US Army. Army history is full of stories of these steadfast and loyal companions who would not abandon wounded human comrades in their units throughout many of America's wars.

Sadly at least two Army posts have banned Pits in housing: Fort Riley, KS and Fort Carson, CO.

If you ask me that is unfair and cruel treatment of some of America's veterans...
Oh yes I knew. I have Stubby pics and many other old or historic photons. I didn't know they were banned in Fort Carson though not that I remember, although I was aware of Fort Riley. It is a shame how they're reputation has turned around.

Just popping in to ask Spicy what the name of this pretty girl was -
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Tris/blkntanfemale.jpg

I could swear I've seen her before (not personally, but in pictures) and was curious if it was the same dog. The dog I'm thinking of is named Gaia
Yes that is the same dog. Only one I could think of real quick that does lots of springpole.

she reminds me of Sorrells dogs...especially the BnT dogs down from Azuma. Spicy will of course confirm or deny this...but she looks very similar to Tatonka's Kamate.
Yes her dam is Kamate, sire is XXX
 
Discussion starter · #51 ·
On another note, does anyone know if molosser type dogs ever made it into the Fertile Crescent? In Iraq there are tons of feral dogs of various types.

On one patrol to an Iraqi police station I noticed there was a pit-looking dog that lived around the station as a sort of 'mascot or pet' that the Iraqi policemen and visiting US soldiers tended to feed whenever he came around.

I've also seen what appear to be pitbull look-alikes hanging around roadside garbage piles a lot.
 
On another note, does anyone know if molosser type dogs ever made it into the Fertile Crescent? In Iraq there are tons of feral dogs of various types.

On one patrol to an Iraqi police station I noticed there was a pit-looking dog that lived around the station as a sort of 'mascot or pet' that the Iraqi policemen and visiting US soldiers tended to feed whenever he came around.

I've also seen what appear to be pitbull look-alikes hanging around roadside garbage piles a lot.

if I remember my geography correctly, Iraq is not too terribly far away from Russia, where is dogfighting with pit bulls is pretty prevalent even today..it stands to reason some of those dogs would make it out of Russia.
 
On another note, does anyone know if molosser type dogs ever made it into the Fertile Crescent? In Iraq there are tons of feral dogs of various types.

On one patrol to an Iraqi police station I noticed there was a pit-looking dog that lived around the station as a sort of 'mascot or pet' that the Iraqi policemen and visiting US soldiers tended to feed whenever he came around.

I've also seen what appear to be pitbull look-alikes hanging around roadside garbage piles a lot.
Yes most certainly they did. Although I'm not sure if it is made into or out of. More like made it out of. When you take into account the Assyrian Mastiff. Assyria was within the fertile crescent, the FC area today still has their share of molossers. Historically the Assyrian mastiff and the Alaunt occupied the fertile crescent and areas today that would be syria, iran, armenia, and turkey.

Breeds native and ancient to those countries would be like

Turkey - Kangal
Armenia - Gampr along with the Caucasian Shepherd within Armenia and the other countries of Caucasus Mountain region. Also the Sarmatian Mastiff.

Syrian mastiffs that descended from these and spread throughout the area.

Then there countries surrounding this with their own breeds. The central asian shepherd breeds are all very similar and similar to caucasion shepherd. (Tobet) Kazakhstan, Sage Koochee (Afghanistan), Alabai (Turkmenistan), as well as to Uzbekistan and mastiffs of India and Pakistan.

Dogs migrate with people often. It is not hard to think these dogs from the FC spread out into the surrounding regions. Dogs of Turkey and the like are very old breeds or at least breeds descended from very old dogs. They are primitive breeds by age and action alike.

ETA
As far as Pits yes they've made it to many countries across the globe. So it isn't uncommon to see them in places outside America. Nor to see possible Pit mixes or just mixed breeds that resemble Pits.

Pits are molossers by their bulldog heritage. They are however a modern breed with some molosser ancestors. Much different then the molossers in the fertile crescent and surrounding areas. They are not of the primitive type of molosser. Nor are they a breed of "pure" heritage.
 
so Spicy...as far as "type" is concerned with Pits...

I find it a little weird that they tend to get lumped in with terriers...because they aren't exactly terriers. :confused:

I don't think they are Bulldogs in the purest sense...those dogs IMO are gone..

and they aren't earth dogs going to ground after small game...


they definatly aren't molossers...


the best classification I see is "Bull Terrier" but even that's a bit weird..

Pit Bull eh...I don't like that as a classification either... mostly because it has a nasty stigma....


What do you say just curious..?


(ps..it was Storm I was thinking of...But Five is nice too...and I like Ryu even though I wasn't sure if she's Santana's get...and she's very very light..that litter with Twister(i think that's his name...gawd what a beautiful dog..) made some very nice pups. :) )
 
so Spicy...as far as "type" is concerned with Pits...

I find it a little weird that they tend to get lumped in with terriers...because they aren't exactly terriers. :confused:

I don't think they are Bulldogs in the purest sense...those dogs IMO are gone..

and they aren't earth dogs going to ground after small game...


they definatly aren't molossers...


the best classification I see is "Bull Terrier" but even that's a bit weird..

Pit Bull eh...I don't like that as a classification either... mostly because it has a nasty stigma....


What do you say just curious..?


(ps..it was Storm I was thinking of...But Five is nice too...and I like Ryu even though I wasn't sure if she's Santana's get...and she's very very light..that litter with Twister(i think that's his name...gawd what a beautiful dog..) made some very nice pups. :) )
They really are an odd dog out, same with a few other breeds.

As for registries UKC has
Guardian, Gun Dog, Companion, Terrier, Herding, Northern, Scenthound and Sighthound.

It seems by name terrier is the only place they will fit. Unless we move them to the companion because of their loss of purpose in the fighting pits. The Dalmatian is here and so are some other terriers.

In AKC the groups are
Sporting
Non Sporting
Working
Hound
Terrier
Toy
Herding

Again terrier fits, but I think working would be a grand place to put them. Because they can and do still work in a number of fields. But by AKC definition they are not a working breed. (along with some other working dogs)

They do have a lot of terrier attributes.

They for sure haven't been used as butchers dogs.

Bull & Terrier is a good definition. I do think simply calling them a working dog in general is ok. People get the idea. They can make effective dogs at doing a terriers work too. There are others in the terrier group which are out of the norm for a terrier. But if they are part terrier or did the job of a terrier that is where they are stuck at.

Breeds of dogs which descended from molossers whether they be mixed with another breed type are often still considered molossers, though it is only be relation. They have some molosser blood in them. Some more then others.

Other then that not much we can go on. I see them as a very versatile breed. One that is a fine working and performance dog.

Many breeds can fit into multi types/groups depending on the classification.

A Kangal is a molosser, a guardian, a working dog, a livestock dog, ect

Yes Twister and Santana did produce nicely together. I like a lot about them. I like the temperament attributes they got from her and the overall structure from both parents. Both Storm and Five are nice dogs in their own way. I really think Five is a nice male, not overdone nor underdone. Storm is fine as well and I think will fill out a little more, she isn't truly lacking substance overall but it seems Santana didn't fully fill out around really around 4yrs old. I think she is going the same route.

Ryu is another of my favorites too. Though she doesn't have the same problem solving skills. Overall she appears to have a solid temperament, tons of drive, good structure, very agile, I can get her to focus and learn. So yes I'm very pleased with her too. She is not of Santana but rather from GR CH Boogieman/CH Butkus breeding.
 
yeah the classification schemes are a bit strange in themselves..I wish they were a little more...I dunno...consistently logical..

like as an example gave two types of classification

purpose and type.


purpose be two general categories...working and companion...


and then within those two have

gundogs
hounds
terriers
guardian
livestock dogs
primitive


in that scheme a pit would simply be a working dog..one bred for a particular job outside of being a companion...the dogs that don't really fit into the more specific categories(and you could apply more than one category...like a Pyr would be Working Livestock and guardian) could simply be working or companion..

lol..im just rambling now...Lonerider sorry for the slight OT..
 
Discussion starter · #57 ·
I don't think they are Bulldogs in the purest sense...those dogs IMO are gone..

and they aren't earth dogs going to ground after small game...


they definatly aren't molossers...
I always took the title of Pitbull to mean the fact that the dogs were bull dogs crossbred with larger terriers (for the gameness aspect mating the molosser/mastiff's strength) for purposes of the fight pit. However that created one of the most versatile and misunderstood breeds in the world.

Yes most certainly they did. Although I'm not sure if it is made into or out of. More like made it out of. When you take into account the Assyrian Mastiff. Assyria was within the fertile crescent, the FC area today still has their share of molossers. Historically the Assyrian mastiff and the Alaunt occupied the fertile crescent and areas today that would be syria, iran, armenia, and turkey.

Breeds native and ancient to those countries would be like

Turkey - Kangal
Armenia - Gampr along with the Caucasian Shepherd within Armenia and the other countries of Caucasus Mountain region. Also the Sarmatian Mastiff.

Syrian mastiffs that descended from these and spread throughout the area.

Then there countries surrounding this with their own breeds. The central asian shepherd breeds are all very similar and similar to caucasion shepherd. (Tobet) Kazakhstan, Sage Koochee (Afghanistan), Alabai (Turkmenistan), as well as to Uzbekistan and mastiffs of India and Pakistan.

Dogs migrate with people often. It is not hard to think these dogs from the FC spread out into the surrounding regions. Dogs of Turkey and the like are very old breeds or at least breeds descended from very old dogs. They are primitive breeds by age and action alike.

ETA
As far as Pits yes they've made it to many countries across the globe. So it isn't uncommon to see them in places outside America. Nor to see possible Pit mixes or just mixed breeds that resemble Pits.

Pits are molossers by their bulldog heritage. They are however a modern breed with some molosser ancestors. Much different then the molossers in the fertile crescent and surrounding areas. They are not of the primitive type of molosser. Nor are they a breed of "pure" heritage.
I seem to remember molossers were very valuable amongst Phoenecian traders who journeyed all over the ancient world, including the FC. The dogs were so valued that they were even a form of trading currency and when the Phoenecians reached the British Isles the dogs were mated with mastiffs of the area to create the ancestors of the Bull and Terrier as well.

It sounds like there are pit type dogs that live in the Fertile Crescent. The one by the Iraqi police station is a sort of pet for the policemen and likes to snack on scraps we'll feed him when we pass by it on patrol. It will bark whenever people that aren't Iraqi police or US troops show up too.

Even the Romans used the molossers as pit fighters too. Roman cruelty was not just toward their fellow humans. The ancestors of pits fought in the Colosseum it seems.

So would some rate Pits as Mastiff types as well? A fellow soldier and amateur dog enthusiast says Pits are basically miniature Mastiffs. I don't agree, frankly. I wonder what other pit fanciers think of that statement.
 
Discussion starter · #60 ·
Heck I think of something like the Bull or Neopolitan Mastiff when I hear the term Mastiff. I know the Molosser is considered by some to be a common ancestor of both the Mastiff type and the Bull and Terriers pitbulls descend from.

On another note, there was one civilian police advisor (the sort of guy who trains Iraqi policemen and who works as a police officer in South Central LA) I've spoken to who said he's had to deal with tons of badly bred pits, usually property of illegal dogfighters or drug dealers. He's one of those guys who says pits tend to turn on their owners (I don't believe this, it's about training and knowing your pooch no matter what or who he is) and also he's had to put down pits that have attacked him whilst on calls or counter-narcotics raids. Can bad breeding/abuse be treated in most pits? I've heard horror stories throughout the web of rescued ex-fighting pits who've turned on their new masters. Are these true or mostly chaff?
 
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