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"Loaded" shoulders have an excess of muscle tissue. Although the dog might look healthy and "cool" in the eyes of many owners, the truth is that loaded shoulders interfere with the dog's ability to work and, in some cases, even to move. Dogs with loaded shoulders also tend to have hypermuscular necks and jaws. Solme people who favor the look hang their dogs from spring poles for lengthy periods. (I have no desire to discuss spring poles--go to YouTube and you will see many examples of their use and misuse.)
 
We had an unfortunate incident here in which 2 Pit Bulls recently attacked a jogger. He was able to shake them off long enough to climb a chain link fence and escape, but he has terrible legs wounds and is now infected with drug resistant Staph. Thankfully the man was large and athletic and not an elderly person or a child that wouldn't have easily escaped, but it is still sad. What is the SADDEST part is the dogs were 'supposedly' owned by a 10 and 12 year old in the family and the parents are blaming the kids for not training the dogs and making the kids' pay the fine. I am not sure that it is OK to expect young children to own and care for a dog that requires exceptional time, patience and careful training. Sadly, this is what ultimately gives Pit Bulls such a bad name - lack of aware owners that are dedicated to ensuring the breed is well trained and controlled. The dogs were euthanized, but I can't help but think if the parents had any foresight, they would've thought twice before allowing their kids to be totally responsible for such a powerful, independent dog and maybe even required their kids to take the dogs to obedience school before calling "No Foul". Seriously! I lived with a perfectly sweet pit bull that my roommate rescued, but he spent so much time and effort to train and work with him.
 
Pardon the question but I'm not familiar with the term American Bullies and how they differ from APBTs and I've heard of Blue Pits too, but am uncertain of what they are.
American Bullies like what you posted. Bred to be shorter, wider, bigger bone and head.

Blue ranges from light to dark blue or bluish gray.

I've been told that Pits should be exclusively the only dog in the household, is this the case?
LOL I think that answer is obvious.

Unless me and pugmom are in some kind of trouble.

How does one determine DA in a puppy or especially a shelter dog, especially if the dog may have been a fighter (I figure a number of shelter dogs may have been rescued or abandoned fighters)?
How they interact and react to other dogs. There are levels of DA and certain dogs they will be aggressive to so it wouldn't be a simple determination. But if they show DA you will most certainly know it. Also pay attention to warning signs before a fight/attack happens. Like the dog getting annoyed or if they are beginning to have less tolerance to another dog. I figure a number of the shelter Pits are dogs that the owners did not want so they took them to the shelter, dumped them off and some were neglected/abused and taken from the owner. There isn't a way to determine the number which are fighting dogs, especially since it probably various from area to area. With some having a higher number of fighters in and others having practically none. That is pretty irrelavent to me in a choice. I'm more concerned with individual dog temperament. If looking into the DA and wanting the dog to be around others I'd take a calm, confident dog social fighter over a hot non fighter.

On another forum I am one of the members listed the difference between United Kennel Club APBT, American Dog Breeder Assocation APBT and the American Kennel Club's American Staffordshire Terrier(almost the same breed as the APBT but AKC didn't want the APBT neg views in it's club so they changed their name)


And this is an American Bully:


They are suppose to be bred to lack a prey drive so they are "dog and human safe" Also known as Hippo dogs. They are low to the ground. They aren't recognized by any national kennel club yet but the breeders are working toward it. They are pretty much English Bulldogs mixed with Pit Bulls and the focus on them is to breed bigger heads and chest. I personally do not like them.
That is simplified because both vary. There are UKC CH which look like the ADBA example, their are ADBA CH that are heavier and shorter then that example, they are not as rangy also. Then their are AKC CH which are heavier and bully and some finer yet even then that dog.

I saw one dog which was totally bully UKC/AKC champion. Had with extreme "bulliness". I've seen several bullies with CH but this one was nuts.

I think most important is to not worry so much about registry but more about pedigree and bloodlines.

There is just way too much differences in dogs that are places within a registry. Especially in UKC.

I personally find the ADBA dogs too tall and lean for my tastes, nearly approaching American Bulldogs in appearance. However, I greatly prefer them over the "American Bully" monstrosity. It's interesting that someone mentioned that "American Bullies" are winning in the UKC ring--well, if they still are, they will eventually stop. There is still no DQ for Bully type dogs in the UKC standard--however--merle has now been DQed (which will *knock wood* reduce the Catahoula crosses) and the characteristics of the "American Bully" have been added or emphasized in virtually every section of the standard as being "very serious faults."

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/AmericanPitBullTerrierRevisedNovember12008
Leaness is about conditioning only. Dogs can be conditioned to different weights under different judges and may also vary by registry as well. The weight of a dog can change how their appearance looks as well. I show in different registries, the standards are not too much different (if judges stick to them as best they can).

There is a great varience in what the ADBA registered dogs look like. I don't find them to typically lean to an AmBulldog look but it is possible with some. Those wouldn't be the norm though. There is also some which carry a percentage of AmBulldog blood so they can possibly have more of an appearance that is similar. Some are of course taller/heavier too because of that AmBulldog blood.

I believe it is the other way around typically in my mind, some AmBulldogs have a more pit like appearance. Probably those that have a good percentage of APBT blood. But even the typicaly scott type AmBulldog wouldn't be easily confused with an APBT of ADBA registration in general. As most are a tad heavier in the proportion department with a little more mass and body. I've seen some performance bred AmBulldogs which could easily be confused with an APBT but normally thats not the case.

I'd also have to say that if this is true of dogs registered ADBA then it is also true of UKC dogs and those registered and titled under other registries because of the fact that there are dual CHs and that the standards if followed correctly are very close. Same for being "too tall" my dogs are between around 13"ish - 20"ish. AKC standard is is 17-18 for females and 18-19 for males. Not too much difference. The UKC desirable weight is 35-60lbs for males and 30-50lbs for females. Dogs on the heavier end of the scale should of course be taller dogs. I also know the heights are some breeders UKC dogs which are fairly close to mine/akc dogs like 16-20" or so. By standard they should be balanced which is why too rangy or too bulky is supposed to be penalized, but it doesn't always work that way. Which is why you see the heavy dogs often placing and finishing, because their are so many within the UKC. Which goes back to the issue of it is the breeders and judges. If more people would show their correct dogs UKC then more correct dogs would be titled. Some judges don't know what they are even looking at either.

On the same note most of my taller ones have been UKC PR or those of UKC/AKC heritage. I had one probably around 25", big and tall dog.

This is UKC and ADBA GR CH


As for Bullies. Yes they still are and they will only stop if judges stop picking them. I keep up with the standards but I know they are only words on paper. The faults that Bullies tend to have (and that are seen in some non bully dogs) were never allowed or ok but somehow they still ended up getting titled before the revision. The revision will do little good as it is up to the owners to present correct dogs and the judges to pick correct dogs over bully dogs. In just a few months it will have already been a year and bullies are still doing fine. Though the merle issue certainly has been being resolved with mostly success in the registries.

See while the UKC is trying to get away from the Am Bully look, it all depends on the judges, what they know as the standard, and if they actually KNOW the standard.

At the UKC Premier, I was helping to show a rarer breed of dog, Estrela Mountain Dog. When we got into the "Guardian Ring" It was quite interesting to see who always won. It was ALWAYS the more common breeds (I think the 2 days I saw, the Boxer, Doberman, English Bull dog, all placed one of the 2 days, the Doberman both days). Why? Because the judges had NO CLUE what was standard on the rarer breeds so they only considered the breeds they knew. Now had these Judges known the rarer breeds standards, They would have noticed that these breeds are almost perfect to what their standards say they should be.

It's not only in the APBT ring that judges are not following the standards, but what THEY like. As long as they like the look of the big heads, the bully like dogs are going to win.
Yup. Trying to judges trying to judge BBoels to Rottie standards years back did not go to well. Of course the dogs did not fit the "standard" (the one the judges had in mind).



I prefer ADBA simply because of the "hippo" type bulldog not being present amongst ADBA reg pits as far as I've seen.

Most of the dogs I've found to be the best in build, temperment and ability are dual registered ADBA and UKC. ADBA prefers the dog to be conditioned differently which is where the "leanness" comes from..a good number of them put on a couple pounds to go compete in UKC. as far as tallness goes, as long as the dog as the correct height to length ratio, I don't really mind how tall it is. I actually prefer a taller dog if given the choice between those and the bullies...
They are also in ADBA. Don't like that but they are. Though they do not hardly ever place, if they are even shown at all. Most are not shown.

Yeah balance is what I'm all about too. Though I prefer the smaller dogs.
 
"Loaded" shoulders have an excess of muscle tissue. Although the dog might look healthy and "cool" in the eyes of many owners, the truth is that loaded shoulders interfere with the dog's ability to work and, in some cases, even to move. Dogs with loaded shoulders also tend to have hypermuscular necks and jaws. Solme people who favor the look hang their dogs from spring poles for lengthy periods. (I have no desire to discuss spring poles--go to YouTube and you will see many examples of their use and misuse.)
Of course I know what a springpole is, I wasn't trying to discuss them. My dogs use them all the time. Lengthy or not is subjective, but some of mine go for short time 15-30mins and others for more 1hr or more or on and off as they please for various lengths of time. Which why I'm trying to figure this out. I'm ignorant of that term so I asked on that.

What I see in the photos on the website I can't tell the difference between those and a non springpole using bully. As either would be bred to be "overdone" and have a lot of mass and bone. That mass typically coming in the bulky, less functional muscle which also heats up quicker and takes longer to cool down. To build up bulky shoulders there are certainly quicker more effective ways. Setting the springpole lower does allow for work of the back legs up to the shoulder depending how low it is set but I haven't seen detrimental over musculation from that yet. Having a dog hang from it can work the neck/jaw well, but less for the rest of the body, for the dogs that twist and shake they do get more out of it.

I ask on the black and tan female because she is not my dog but an avid springpole user


I can post mine which love it also to see what is thought of them. Though I myself also can't tell the difference between the ones which do and those which do not.

Maybe I'm not making sense though because I still don't know what I'm looking for or at.

Thanks for attempting to help me though.
 
They are also in ADBA. Don't like that but they are. Though they do not hardly ever place, if they are even shown at all. Most are not shown.
I know they're there...but from what i've seen there are waay less than in UKC or AKC.

I have a feeling its because ADBA is a little more exacting as far as the standard goes. its a little difficult to put up a dog that clearly does not meet the specified angles lol..


Yeah balance is what I'm all about too. Though I prefer the smaller dogs.

you know what I like best Spicy..she's probably lounging at your feet right now and all her lovely progeny not far away. :D

They should be banned. Oh, wait, they are! :)
ummm...I am utterly baffled by this very strange statement.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
Spicy, I'd swear the dog in your post has part Greater-Swiss Mountain Dog in her by its coloration, but I could be wrong.

The ADBA pits are immediately what comes readily to mind what I think of when I imagine a pitbull. I imagine AmStaffs as stockier built but not to the point of a Hippo Dog. And any rate, I'm liable to get a pit or pit mix that passes my temperment tests and if the shelter lets me introduce my own dog to prospective family members that is so much the better.

In any case it'll be a few years before that decision is made.

I gather shelters can give good information on a dog's background if they know it? How easy is it to train a rescued shelter dog?
 
apbt come in a wide range of coloration...the only no nos are merle and albinos.


as for rescue pits.


http://www.pbrc.net/ is a GREAT place to start. its like a pit bull specific petfinder. and also has some excellent info on care, legislation and other particulars of importance.

look for a rescue that has tested their animals with kids, cats, other dogs etc.

Since you have a male Malinois..the typical recommendation(and in some rescues they will require..) that you get a female because *generally* opposite sex pairings are thought to decrease the potential for squabbles and strife between the two dogs.

most will not be fighters. most will be owner releases and strays as well as some abuse/neglect cases. there is generally way too much legal/liability hooha surrounding fighters for them to be put up for adoption.

go for a slightly younger female, not a puppy but not a dog set in her ways either. perhaps between 1 to 1.5 yrs of age.

Pits are very trainable....as long as you are not easily pissed off or a quitter. they can be stubborn. this has nothing to do with being a rescue..its just a tendancy of the breed. even DA as crap dogs can be trained to behave themselves around other dogs.

this is a breed that is EAGER to please. they are bouncy, exhuberant goofballs who can be serious if the situation calls for it. they tend to be slavishly affectionate attention w***es who adore humans.

the eager to please part can sometimes translate into "might as well call it stubborn"

example.

I taught Bolo(my pit) to pull me on skates. she has a "speed up" cue. I have to be careful not to say it too excitedly or she will burst into a no holds barred all out dead run....and lord help me if there is a building directly in front of us...its gonna hurt when we crash into it.

its like she gets the joy of running because I want her too in her head and it completely blinds her to all else.
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
http://www.pbrc.net/ is a GREAT place to start. its like a pit bull specific petfinder. and also has some excellent info on care, legislation and other particulars of importance.
Thanks. I've actually visited the site a few times in the past and I've also gotten some great information from a couple other sources, namely the book American Pitbull Terriers from the Animal Planet dog series and the book Pitbull For Dummies back when I considered getting a pit before I got Ninja.

Right now Ninja's a very good dog with other dogs and his temperment is still that Malinois hair trigger responsiveness. I'm guessing IF I add an APBT to the mix a self assured, calm and mellow animal will be a complement to my Mal?
 
i dont really no much about pitbulls, some of them are quite nice looking. But i was wondering if the cropped ears are a conformation point or just tradition?? .. and whats your opinion of it? i mean it does make them look pretty .. 'tough' .. but i dont really like it
 
i dont really no much about pitbulls, some of them are quite nice looking. But i was wondering if the cropped ears are a conformation point or just tradition?? .. and whats your opinion of it? i mean it does make them look pretty .. 'tough' .. but i dont really like it
nope not a conformation thing or a historical thing.

fighting dogs were NOT typically cropped for the pits..that's a myth.

its done as a personal preference. for various reasons.


----------------------------


LoneRider:

the animal planet book is poor quality info from what I remember. Pits for dummies about the same.

there are quite a few myths surrounding the breed and many of them are perpetuated by some really terrible books and websites.
 
LOL I think that answer is obvious.

Unless me and pugmom are in some kind of trouble.

LOL...and I have a double whammy because I have multi dogs and they happen to be small dogs too :)

A spring pole is just a tool...and like any other can be used appropriately or misused

I would like to get a rescue pit in the future too....I would look for one that has been living with a foster family
 
I know they're there...but from what i've seen there are waay less than in UKC or AKC.

I have a feeling its because ADBA is a little more exacting as far as the standard goes. its a little difficult to put up a dog that clearly does not meet the specified angles lol..
Oh yes way less.

Really in UKC the standard never changed but the dogs that were bred and shown and judges put up did. That is the issue. As the revision was mentioned it won't help much.

It is because the ADBA judges do not want to put up those types of dogs. The majority know what a bulldog is and how far from it bullies are. Not to mention some have been breeding them for decades or generations within their family. Hank, Kate and Amy are all some of my favorite judges not to mention people in general. There are some judges which are a bit off, but you can't expect all of them to be perfect. Some which are not as consistently nor to the best of the standard.

you know what I like best Spicy..she's probably lounging at your feet right now and all her lovely progeny not far away. :D
Wouldn't happen to look like this?


She is not really that tall. about 17"
What is it that you really like about her if you don't mind me asking?

Spicy, I'd swear the dog in your post has part Greater-Swiss Mountain Dog in her by its coloration, but I could be wrong.

The ADBA pits are immediately what comes readily to mind what I think of when I imagine a pitbull. I imagine AmStaffs as stockier built but not to the point of a Hippo Dog. And any rate, I'm liable to get a pit or pit mix that passes my temperment tests and if the shelter lets me introduce my own dog to prospective family members that is so much the better.

In any case it'll be a few years before that decision is made.

I gather shelters can give good information on a dog's background if they know it? How easy is it to train a rescued shelter dog?
Of course you are wrong. I find the statement odd. Since Pit Bulls can have white markings from a little to a lot, for a tan point to be a tri certainly isn't a reason to think they have Swissie. The reason I find it odd however is that there are many breeds which can have tan points/tri, some more common then swissies to pick them out it catches you off guard. A lot of people I meet don't really know what a Swissie is at all.

I really like tris and sorrells dogs so its all good to me. I almost got relative to this dog, but it didn't work out, my partner wanted a female, not male (which is what they've had available).

I personally like a lot of what I see with the UKC/ADBA champions. The structure and conformation on them seems ideal. I think structure can be very important to a dog.


If you are not going to a breeder why not try a rescue. It could be much better with having your other dog. The foster home will be able to tell you about the dog and they will be living in a home environment. You could also certainly have your family meet the dog and your other dog too.

As for your family you need to make sure they are certain what it means to handle a Pit Bull, how to break up a fight and the do/donts. Even when if they do know and are responsible people something could still happen more so with someone else rather then yourself, hence why my friends dog ended up over here when the family was watching the dogs and thigns didnt work out so well. Not everyone is up to responsibilities that might come with them and are not on their toes.

Shelters can if they know, often times they don't know much or anything about a dogs real background. How easy depends on the dogs intelligence, biddability, somewhat on what they already know/are used to, if they've had any training and their level of socialization.

LOL...and I have a double whammy because I have multi dogs and they happen to be small dogs too :)

A spring pole is just a tool...and like any other can be used appropriately or misused

I would like to get a rescue pit in the future too....I would look for one that has been living with a foster family
Yes you have those little guys with your big scarey Pit!
 
Yes it looks like that.

She is beautiful. She is overall nice shape and proportion, from what I can tell in the photos she has more good points than bad.

and then there are the hints in the photos at her personality...the expressions and postures that indicate a intelligent observant dog with a lot of spunk.

then there are her progeny. Nediva and Vipette and one other whose name I can't remember right now who stand out to me as being very nice dogs.

and then there's the fact that she looks like what Bolo would if she didn't have such a yucky front which throws what would have been a nice rear off .

I spend hours poring over stacked photos. I've been to a couple of shows now...just observing quietly and taking notes. I don't know all the judges names yet or which dog belongs to whom...but I've seen faaaaar more dogs who pale in comparison to her than surpass her. I bet she's a damn good dog. I can see it on her face, in the way she moves in the flirt photos.

oh and Spicy...

what I meant by the tallness comment was this..

if I were a judge and faced with the choice between an overly short dog and an overly tall dog...I would choose the tall dog...because the tall dog at least would have reach in its stride as opposed to the short dog who must exert more energy to maintain a good pace.

I don't actually like a too tall dog...as the standard states "too much of one thing robs him of another" and for all the speed that a taller dog could get having longer legs...he would be less agile than the correctly balanced dog.
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
LoneRider:

the animal planet book is poor quality info from what I remember. Pits for dummies about the same.

there are quite a few myths surrounding the breed and many of them are perpetuated by some really terrible books and websites.
A lot of it appeared to be common sense dog raising from what I could ascertain. I can't see what exactly was wrong with them. Especially the dummies book. The author had the history of pits down nearly perfect.

If you are not going to a breeder why not try a rescue. It could be much better with having your other dog. The foster home will be able to tell you about the dog and they will be living in a home environment. You could also certainly have your family meet the dog and your other dog too.
That's actually another option I considered. And as I've stated, I'm not actively looking just yet, just curious and seeing what my options are.
 
that's just it though...pit history is very subjective....you CAN'T have it down perfect.

In my researches I will find one account that says x and then another that says y.

a lot of conjecture surrounds the breed...such as...

some believe the pit bull to be the original English Bulldog in pure form, with 'terrier' being a misnomer and certainly the historical depictions show vast phenotypic similarities but...

other say that the pit bull is a mix between the original English Bulldog and the English White Terrier...still others say it was the English Black and Tan Terrier...others claim there is pointer blood in the pit bull...etc etc etc...


some will tell you that the Amstaff and the APBT are two separate breeds...others say the Amstaff is the "show pit bull" and the APBT is the working version...

I could go on and on and on and on with the example lol...

I'd recommend the Colby book on APBT and a few others..Ill get you a full list after I get off work if you are interested...and I KNOW Spicy can point you to some good info.
 
Yes please. I could use some more useful data.
will get you the list when I get home.

in the meantime let me ask you this..

Why are you considering a pit bull? What made you hone in on this breed as a possible addition to your life?

(i ask because the answers to questions like these will help me point you towards the right info/resources to best suit your needs)
 
Yes it looks like that.

She is beautiful. She is overall nice shape and proportion, from what I can tell in the photos she has more good points than bad.

and then there are the hints in the photos at her personality...the expressions and postures that indicate a intelligent observant dog with a lot of spunk.

then there are her progeny. Nediva and Vipette and one other whose name I can't remember right now who stand out to me as being very nice dogs.

and then there's the fact that she looks like what Bolo would if she didn't have such a yucky front which throws what would have been a nice rear off .

I spend hours poring over stacked photos. I've been to a couple of shows now...just observing quietly and taking notes. I don't know all the judges names yet or which dog belongs to whom...but I've seen faaaaar more dogs who pale in comparison to her than surpass her. I bet she's a damn good dog. I can see it on her face, in the way she moves in the flirt photos.

oh and Spicy...

what I meant by the tallness comment was this..

if I were a judge and faced with the choice between an overly short dog and an overly tall dog...I would choose the tall dog...because the tall dog at least would have reach in its stride as opposed to the short dog who must exert more energy to maintain a good pace.

I don't actually like a too tall dog...as the standard states "too much of one thing robs him of another" and for all the speed that a taller dog could get having longer legs...he would be less agile than the correctly balanced dog.
Wow you pegged her very good just from photos/expressions. The things I like about her. Spunk, biddability, intelligence, drive, problem solving skills, she's in tune with me, and just her overall personality. Of course I like her conformation too. Another of her progeny now I'm curious as to which.

Oh I see what you mean with the tallness.

Lonerider
Try the book

Guide To American Pit Bull Terriers

by

Todd Fenstermacher
 
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