On Pitbulls

LoneRider said:

Having read somewhere on this forum that good pitbull breeders are hard to find, out of sheer curiousity I figured I'd google search pitbull breeders. I'm presuming the bigshot, badguy image is what is played on whenever advertising a pitbull breeder but the images on this website seem to be typical. Every one of those dogs, even the pups, look to be uber muscular giants.

I'm not thinking of adding a pit to my life just yet, I've already got my hands full with my Belgian Malinois and I'm not sure a Pit with the inherent dog aggression that is resident in them would get along well with my present dog.

Any idea why most pitbull breeders seem to have steroid enhanced breeding stock?

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Those dogs look to not be muscular to me at all. Big yes in size and bones, some a little overweight.

It is good to consider the possibility of DA, many people do not and it doesn't always end well.

As to answer your question like you said (or it has been said) good breeders are hard to find. American Bullies are what a lot of the "new generation" wants and they can sell very well/high prices. So many are getting into breeding them only for money. It is a huge cycle. They buy, they want to make the same kind of money, so they breed and it goes onto the next person. So American Bully breeders are many. As far as online certainly there are many who have a website so they are what pops up most often when you google. Even 5yrs ago I don't think this was the case (yes there was AmBullies back then but not so many breeders) if I remember right.

As for the bully dogs these are actually not too bad at all. Some are better then others structure wise, but I have seen some pretty bad structures and some dogs with very extreme faults that were considered "awesome". These are not bad at all if an American Bully is what one desires. (Though I can't comment on the breeder or their practices I'm just saying the dogs themselves). Some are nice for a bigger dog. Do you know exactly what you would possibly be looking for in a Pit Bull? Breed/type, temperament, size, ect?

skelaki said:

I think the best thing to do is to go to some UKC shows and talk to the APBT owners there. These are the people who will be breeding to the breed standard.

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Unfortunately Bully dogs are even placing there. Not always and there will certainly be good breeders there and dogs to true standard but many a bully type are now in UKC shows and some winning. The heavier staff dogs not so "bullied out" have been for sometime. You can see dogs from traditional style to way over done placing. I've noticed the same with the AKC AmStaff. Judges should perhaps be stricture to the standard. Some dogs on this site wouldn't have a problem getting their UKC CH.

LoupGarouTFTs said:

Although some of them are fat, the reason why some of them are so loaded in front is because they are "exercised" on a spring pole, not because of steroid use. I can recommend some decent pit breeders in Texas and Mississippi, if you are in that general area.

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What do you mean by loaded in the front? I've never heard of a springpole making a dog "loaded in the front" but I'm not exactly sure what the term means. I certainly don't see anything out of the ordinary with these particular dogs as far as front end on Bullies, but want to make sure I know what is meant by it?

Because most "Pit" breeders are actually breeding bullies. Stay away from breeders breeding blue pits too. A breeder shouldn't breed for color and I'm on a PB forum and apparentlu Pits shouldn't even come in blue. It's an "unhealthy" color but that may be bcuz they're so popular and all the inbreeding goin on wit that color.
Another thing...bloodlines like Razors Edge is horrible! They're mutts. They're mixed with Mastiffs to get a bigger size. So stay away from that bloodline if you ever look into getting a Pit. Another bloodline to stay away from would be the Gotti line. There's a ton more. Go to shows and talk to breeders. It'll be difficult to find a good breeder online but in person at a show it won't be as difficult to find a reputable breeder that's actually breeding PB and not Bullies(those ugly hippo/pit looking things.)

Personally I think its a image thing. What is the need to adjust the breed so much to create a sub breed that looks like a pop can. The pit bulls (and some crosses that I know and love) don't look anything like that. They are slightly taller and not at all close to as bulky. I had a guy come into my work, with a pit bull. ( I work at a pet supply store BTW) The spike collar around his nech was so huge it just looked like a clown. He needed a muzzle for his dog, who was dog aggressive, so he could take his dog to the dog park, so he could "play" with other dogs with out hurting them. In the city, where he also lives where pit bulls are banned. Then he goes to tell us he's going to breed him, cause he's a "fine lookin dog".
I'm not saying all pitbull owners/"breeders" are like that. Majority of the ones I met are amazing. But people who want a dog like that for a tough image, its just silly. And I think that's why people breed them like that. The more massive, the "tougher". I dunno, thats my personal opinion.

www.apbtconformation.com

this is a good place to start if you want to understand the different standards..

I prefer ADBA dogs.

Online is not a good place to look for a pit. your best bet is to go to an ADBA show or pull and just start talking to people.

Look for breeders with dogs that are shown in more than just confo preferably. Also look for those who health test.


those dogs are built weird on that sitee and some of them are fat.

as far as DA is concerned...socialize extensively as a pup and simply make a point never to leave your pit unsupervised with other dogs. I have a DA pit who has learned to play and socialize...but I know never to leave her alone with another dog because if something DID happen..I wouldn't be able to stop it. Also...don't take a pit to a dog park. its better to find a smaller more controllable group of dogs for your pit to socialize with.

now..

have you checked whether you can even have a pit?

check your local laws, check your homeowner's insurance policy if you own and check with your landlord if you rent. those things can be a big stumbling block in pit ownership and are often integral reasons why people end up giving up their pits.

Are you willing to go the extra mile with this dog?

the fire this breed is currently under nessecitates that pit owners EXEMPLIFY responsible ownership. meaning doing everything you can to show the world these dogs are not horrible monsters.


Do you take abuse well?

people will cross the street when they see your dog, they sometimes hurl insults, call animal control on you for silly reasons(he owns a PIT BULL!! ) and once I had a gun pulled on my dog...and we were doing nothing but calmly walking down the street. People will look at you with a mix of fear and revulsion.

so you kinda have to have thick skin and not be easily perturbed..

just a few things for you to consider...

You can always try a shelter. I picked up a pit little over a month ago to add to my pack. He has mixed very well with my family (myself, GF, and 2 dogs). I really couldn't have asked for a better dog to come out of a shelter. He is taking to training very fast.
The hardest things to work with so far are DA. He shows no DA towards my dogs but does with some outside dogs. However once I show him "this dog is ok" he backs off. Example is I took him to my parents about a week ago. They have a golden and he got a little aggressive. I took him back outside walked around a bit and tried again. This time the golden decided to show dominance and my pit stayed calm and ignored him the rest of the day.

Second problem is he was obviously hit. The other night I had a paper towel center. I will use it and play with my other two dogs sometimes by hitting them. They will grab it and we tear it apart then throw it away. I forgot about him being hit and did this with him. He cowered and thought he was in for a beating. I felt bad after that.
I've had him for just over a month and can only see him getting much better in the years to come.

Any shelter is overloaded with Pits. The one I went to had I would say 60% pits. Some looked good others did not.

Pardon the question but I'm not familiar with the term American Bullies and how they differ from APBTs and I've heard of Blue Pits too, but am uncertain of what they are.

Anyhoo if I do ever look into getting a Pit seriously, I'll get one from a shelter.

Having known a few pit owners where I live in Central Florida, I know what owning such a dog entails. And because I already have one dog, I'm not sure if a pit would be a good addition to the pack.

I've got a few years before I even seriously will consider adding a pit to my pack. I've already got my malinois, who's the family darling just about. He's got no dog aggression issues, because we've socialized him with everything from a dachshund to our neighbor's Bullmastiff.

Aesthetically I like uncropped ears and undocked tails in any dog, it just makes them look more natural.

I've been told that Pits should be exclusively the only dog in the household, is this the case?

American Bullies are kinda of like English Bulldogs with longer muzzles for the most part...uber wide chests, massive heads, short legs etc.


as for owning only a pit..

you can have many dogs of widely varying breeds in the same house with a pit...it just depends on the individual pit bull..

just as a side note though...I almost took in a Malinios..my DA pit and her played rather well together actually. the only reason I didn't take the Mal is because she snapped at my son.

Im kind of the converse of you lol...I have a pit...and am contemplating the possibility of a Mal.

I will say this..I tend to recommend to people that if you want multiple dogs and one of them a pit...it's probably safer to go with all medium/large breeds. Pits tend to be really rambunctious and could easily hurt a small dog not even meaning to. but again...depends on the individual dog.

LoneRider said:

Pardon the question but I'm not familiar with the term American Bullies and how they differ from APBTs and I've heard of Blue Pits too, but am uncertain of what they are.

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On another forum I am one of the members listed the difference between United Kennel Club APBT, American Dog Breeder Assocation APBT and the American Kennel Club's American Staffordshire Terrier(almost the same breed as the APBT but AKC didn't want the APBT neg views in it's club so they changed their name)


And this is an American Bully:


They are suppose to be bred to lack a prey drive so they are "dog and human safe" Also known as Hippo dogs. They are low to the ground. They aren't recognized by any national kennel club yet but the breeders are working toward it. They are pretty much English Bulldogs mixed with Pit Bulls and the focus on them is to breed bigger heads and chest. I personally do not like them.

As for a Blue Pit Bull,http://pitbullregistry.com/blue pitbull pictures.htm has MANY photos of blue pit bulls.

I've been told that Pits should be exclusively the only dog in the household, is this the case?

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Nah. They actually do get along with other dogs, you just have to be able to step in and not let things get out of control. There is a chance of DA in these dogs so you may get one that never will be able to be around other dogs. That's why if you are thinking about a Pit Bull, an older one that is already tested around dogs is a good idea when adding to a pack. You also must keep in the back of your mind "crate and rotate" which means if you do have a DA dog, crating it when the others dogs are around, and allowing it out only when the other dogs are put away. Most DA dogs are selective DA. Some dogs the love, others they hate. Even Zim's Bolo who is DA gets along with some dogs. You just have to be able to know when to step in and cool down things before they get out of hand.

LoupGarouTFTs said:

It's interesting that someone mentioned that "American Bullies" are winning in the UKC ring--well, if they still are, they will eventually stop. There is still no DQ for Bully type dogs in the UKC standard--however--merle has now been DQed (which will *knock wood* reduce the Catahoula crosses) and the characteristics of the "American Bully" have been added or emphasized in virtually every section of the standard as being "very serious faults."

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See while the UKC is trying to get away from the Am Bully look, it all depends on the judges, what they know as the standard, and if they actually KNOW the standard.

At the UKC Premier, I was helping to show a rarer breed of dog, Estrela Mountain Dog. When we got into the "Guardian Ring" It was quite interesting to see who always won. It was ALWAYS the more common breeds (I think the 2 days I saw, the Boxer, Doberman, English Bull dog, all placed one of the 2 days, the Doberman both days). Why? Because the judges had NO CLUE what was standard on the rarer breeds so they only considered the breeds they knew. Now had these Judges known the rarer breeds standards, They would have noticed that these breeds are almost perfect to what their standards say they should be.

It's not only in the APBT ring that judges are not following the standards, but what THEY like. As long as they like the look of the big heads, the bully like dogs are going to win.

LoupGarouTFTs said:

I personally find the ADBA dogs too tall and lean for my tastes, nearly approaching American Bulldogs in appearance. However, I greatly prefer them over the "American Bully" monstrosity. It's interesting that someone mentioned that "American Bullies" are winning in the UKC ring--well, if they still are, they will eventually stop. There is still no DQ for Bully type dogs in the UKC standard--however--merle has now been DQed (which will *knock wood* reduce the Catahoula crosses) and the characteristics of the "American Bully" have been added or emphasized in virtually every section of the standard as being "very serious faults."

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/AmericanPitBullTerrierRevisedNovember12008

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I prefer ADBA simply because of the "hippo" type bulldog not being present amongst ADBA reg pits as far as I've seen.

Most of the dogs I've found to be the best in build, temperment and ability are dual registered ADBA and UKC. ADBA prefers the dog to be conditioned differently which is where the "leanness" comes from..a good number of them put on a couple pounds to go compete in UKC. as far as tallness goes, as long as the dog as the correct height to length ratio, I don't really mind how tall it is. I actually prefer a taller dog if given the choice between those and the bullies...

LoneRider said:

How does one determine DA in a puppy or especially a shelter dog, especially if the dog may have been a fighter (I figure a number of shelter dogs may have been rescued or abandoned fighters)?

And besides I'd have to clear getting a Pit with my folks and extended family. As I've said before, in Filipino households dogs become communal. Ninja (my Mal) has my whole household to look after him when I'm gone on deployment (like right now).

Off topic: as far as Malinois go, the one that snapped at your son probably wasn't socialized properly. What'd your son do that caused her to snap?

Back on topic: As stated it'll be a while before I think of adding a pit to my family, and if that it'll be a shelter pit of good temperment.

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You don't know if a dog is DA until it displays DA. So the old adage "prevention is 9/10ths of the cure" applies. Know when to step in and let the dogs have a chill minute and take precautions such as not letting the dog run off leash without a fence and not leaving the dog alone with other dogs.



as for the Mal...we were walking and the boy was asleep in the stroller...he cried out in his sleep and she snapped.

that to me is unacceptable in a dog.