New fully German Shepard!

1165 Views 23 Replies 7 Participants Last post by parus, Jan 22, 2022

Stsambounieris

Discussion Starter · Jan 19, 2022

Hi everyone I’m new here and I hope I can desperately find the answers I’m looking for. I have a German Shepard full blooded. She is 8 months old. Let me tell you this dog is WILD. (Preface-I have another 10 year old German Shepard who is a complete angel doesn’t bother the cats or the goats/sheep-he just chills and minds his business) both of my dogs are complete outside dogs. however my new puppy is the opposite of that. She chases the cats and the goats and sheep. She tears up packages that come here, anytime I tie her up she finds a way to get loose, she jumps and play bites. I wanted to think this is all puppy behavior. But abt a month ago she was chasing the goats and sheep I mean running them down (it’s in her nature I know) and running them is ok from time to time but she ran across a new born baby sheep and she killed it, it was nothing crazy I believe she went to pick it up and hurt it at It’s belly. one week prior one went missing we never found it. I got horrified and sent her to a three week training boarding place. She comes back the 31st. This dog is the smartest dog I’ve ever met. I started using a shock collar to keep her out of the pasture and she figured out I’m the one controlling the shock. So she knows when I leave the house that’s when she can go in the pasture …and that’s when she killed the baby sheep, when I left the house…I come back and catch her red handed getting out of the fence holding it in her mouth. She immediately drops it and crouches down. Scared as hell she walked herself over to her kennel knowing what she did was wrong. I need any tips or tricks or advice from someone who has gone through the same thing. It’s winter now so we have a lot of new borns and I’m so scared for when she comes back. I’m looking for a shock collar that’s wireless works off WiFi that allows me to set the perimeter. One that keeps shocking when she crosses the barrier…so she knows she CANT go in there….pls help thank you in advance

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Toedtoes

· #2 · Jan 19, 2022

Here is a great article about how shock collars can actually make a behavior worse - especially in a high energy dog like this.

In addition, sending HER to training school only teaches her how to behave elsewhere. YOU need to go to training class with her and learn how to properly communicate with her and build a trust between the two of you.

How long have you had her? Did you just get her or have you had her since she was little and are just now identifying that she is "out of control"?

Her slinking off isn't about guilt in her actions - it is fear in what she knows is coming because it has happened before. This is another issue with punishment based training.

Shiba shake (linked above) has some good info on how to handle high energy and prey oriented dogs.

At this point, you need to make changes in your behavior if you want the dog to work in your life. You need to put energy into providing mental stimulation and mental exercise for her. You need to interact with her more in a positive manner. YOU need to go to training classes and learn how to redirect her from negative behaviors without the use of pain (which at this point is backfiring on you). You need to find acceptable activities for her that meet her prey drive and encourage and participate in that activity with her.

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Inflicting pain and punishment on another creature for the purpose of control or sport is abuse - plain and simple.
“Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man.” ― Arthur Schopenhauer
“Animals are more than ever a test of our character, of mankind's capacity for empathy and for decent, honorable conduct and faithful stewardship. We are called to treat them with kindness, not because they have rights or power or some claim to equality, but in a sense because they don't; because they all stand unequal and powerless before us.” ― Matthew Scully
“The assumption that animals are without rights and the illusion that our treatment of them has no moral significance is a positively outrageous example of Western crudity and barbarity. Universal compassion is the only guarantee of morality.” ― Arthur Schopenhaur

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BigBlackDog

· #3 · Jan 19, 2022

Stsambounieris said:
however my new puppy is the opposite of that. She chases the cats and the goats and sheep. She tears up packages that come here, anytime I tie her up she finds a way to get loose, she jumps and play bites. I wanted to think this is all puppy behavior. But abt a month ago she was chasing the goats and sheep I mean running them down (it’s in her nature I know) and running them is ok from time to time but she ran across a new born baby sheep and she killed it, it was nothing crazy I believe she went to pick it up and hurt it at It’s belly. one week prior one went missing we never found it.

It's unclear what you're expectations are for this puppy. You can't allow her to chase the stock sometimes, but not too much and not to even enter the field when you're gone. Mixed messages!

If you want the dog to herd the stock, you have to train them. Herders are dissuaded pretty sharply if they get too rough with the stock! It takes time and a lot of work to teach the dog, and you have to put in the time and effort if that's what you want. How much training have YOU done with this puppy?

Stsambounieris said:
. I got horrified and sent her to a three week training boarding place. She comes back the 31st. This dog is the smartest dog I’ve ever met. I started using a shock collar to keep her out of the pasture and she figured out I’m the one controlling the shock.

Did you mention these issues to the board and train folks? What are you expecting her to learn there?

Aversion training could work, but you really have to know what you're doing to get it right. Rather than spending money on an electric fence (which aren't all that reliable with some dogs), you'd be better off hiring a good trainer to help teach the dog at home IMHO.

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3GSD4IPO

· #4 · Jan 20, 2022 (Edited)

I have German ShepHerd dogs.. Working lines (what lines is this dog of yours?). I also DO use an Electronic collar in my training tool box.

I am going to be blunt here. You are expecting far too much of this dog and you are absolutely using an electronic collar inappropriately and unfairly.

German ShepHerds are PARTNER dogs. This means they are bred to have PACK DRIVE which means bred to PARTNER with a Human Handler. They are not "outdoor leave to their own devices" dogs. They want to form a RELATIONSHIP with a human. Working lines are especially energetic and NEED training and that training should start out as TEACHING and that teaching needs to be FUN and interesting for the dog.

German ShepHerds are dogs with high prey drive. The higher the prey drive the better the dog! This is especially true if the dog has good pack drive and is Confident.

You are turning this 8 month old "wild child" out with No Training and a ton of inappropriate and unfair punishment and expecting the dog to magically stop entertaining herself by chasing and killing small livestock.

Board and train is NOT your answer. For the Answer see the rest:

First you need to bring the dog inside with you and house train her. You need to develop a relationship separate from your other dog. You need to train basics such as sit, down, go to crate or mat, and come here. That process is explained in many books and many resources on line. The bottom line is you use food and make the right behavior rewarding to the dog. The more it is a game the more the dog will respond. At 8 months old the dog is not up for punishment. No need. Make it so the dog wants to do the behavior. The first two parameters of training are showing her "how to" then having her "want to." Punishment at this stage is unwarranted. It may be warranted in the future. It is not warranted at this time it may actually never be warranted (depending on the dog and what you are doing)!

When the dog goes out, she needs to be on a good six foot leash. This will most assuredly will prevent her chasing livestock. She is never to be off this lead until she has a reliable recall. As a result of her being allowed to run wild and not building a relationship with you this will take time and effort.. your time and effort.

Put the e collar up. Train your dog. Make her your partner. You won't regret it!
PS
So you know I have some knowledge below is what I have accomplished with my various German Shepherds. I do know the breed and of what I say.

German Shepherd: Taught her to herd Dairy cattle on my dairy farm. Also taught to herd heifers. Best hand a person could have.

Another German Shepherd American lines with some German Working lines. AKC obedience dog. AKC CGC and AKC CD. Trained to CDX but not trialed. Started on sheep herding.

Another German Shepherd passed her Bh. Trained as a house pet. Spent almost three years in Schutzhund training. Showline dog. A lot of nerve. Decent drives. Took care of my aging Mother.

Another German Shepherd (working kines) trained in IPO (formerly Schutzhund). Titles were Bh, IPO 1-3, Fh 1. The Fh is a tracking title she earned at a tracking Championship. She won the Fh 1 against world competitors.
Current German Shepherd (working lines has his Bh, American Schutzhund BT, AKC CGC, AKC CD, UPr I (Schutzhund obedience title), Fpr 1 (Schutzhund tracking title). Training for IGP 1-3.

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3GSD4IPO

· #5 · Jan 20, 2022

FWIW if you want a dog to handle livestock you must first develop that partnership I mention above. That dog that herded cattle for me was like an extension of my right hand. I could work cattle with the horse and that dog. They helped each other.

She did other amazing things. She was a comfort to small children.. she would crawl up to them so they would not be afraid of a big dog.

Please, if you do not want to buy into the effort making this dog your partner, please return her to her breeder.

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Stsambounieris

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jan 20, 2022

BigBlackDog said:
It's unclear what you're expectations are for this puppy. You can't allow her to chase the stock sometimes, but not too much and not to even enter the field when you're gone. Mixed messages!

If you want the dog to herd the stock, you have to train them. Herders are dissuaded pretty sharply if they get too rough with the stock! It takes time and a lot of work to teach the dog, and you have to put in the time and effort if that's what you want. How much training have YOU done with this puppy?

Did you mention these issues to the board and train folks? What are you expecting her to learn there?

Aversion training could work, but you really have to know what you're doing to get it right. Rather than spending money on an electric fence (which aren't all that reliable with some dogs), you'd be better off hiring a good trainer to help teach the dog at home IMHO.

BigBlackDog said:
It's unclear what you're expectations are for this puppy. You can't allow her to chase the stock sometimes, but not too much and not to even enter the field when you're gone. Mixed messages!

If you want the dog to herd the stock, you have to train them. Herders are dissuaded pretty sharply if they get too rough with the stock! It takes time and a lot of work to teach the dog, and you have to put in the time and effort if that's what you want. How much training have YOU done with this puppy?

Did you mention these issues to the board and train folks? What are you expecting her to learn there?

Aversion training could work, but you really have to know what you're doing to get it right. Rather than spending money on an electric fence (which aren't all that reliable with some dogs), you'd be better off hiring a good trainer to help teach the dog at home IMHO.

I spend at least 2 hours with her everyday. She can go in the fence if she’s not hurting them she needs to know the difference. Yes I told the trainer the whole situation.

Stsambounieris

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jan 20, 2022

3GSD4IPO said:
I have German ShepHerd dogs.. Working lines (what lines is this dog of yours?). I also DO use an Electronic collar in my training tool box.

I am going to be blunt here. You are expecting far too much of this dog and you are absolutely using an electronic collar inappropriately and unfairly.

German ShepHerds are PARTNER dogs. This means they are bred to have PACK DRIVE which means bred to PARTNER with a Human Handler. They are not "outdoor leave to their own devices" dogs. They want to form a RELATIONSHIP with a human. Working lines are especially energetic and NEED training and that training should start out as TEACHING and that teaching needs to be FUN and interesting for the dog.

German ShepHerds are dogs with high prey drive. The higher the prey drive the better the dog! This is especially true if the dog has good pack drive and is Confident.

You are turning this 8 month old "wild child" out with No Training and a ton of inappropriate and unfair punishment and expecting the dog to magically stop entertaining herself by chasing and killing small livestock.

Board and train is NOT your answer. For the Answer see the rest:

First you need to bring the dog inside with you and house train her. You need to develop a relationship separate from your other dog. You need to train basics such as sit, down, go to crate or mat, and come here. That process is explained in many books and many resources on line. The bottom line is you use food and make the right behavior rewarding to the dog. The more it is a game the more the dog will respond. At 8 months old the dog is not up for punishment. No need. Make it so the dog wants to do the behavior. The first two parameters of training are showing her "how to" then having her "want to." Punishment at this stage is unwarranted. It may be warranted in the future. It is not warranted at this time it may actually never be warranted (depending on the dog and what you are doing)!

When the dog goes out, she needs to be on a good six foot leash. This will most assuredly will prevent her chasing livestock. She is never to be off this lead until she has a reliable recall. As a result of her being allowed to run wild and not building a relationship with you this will take time and effort.. your time and effort.

Put the e collar up. Train your dog. Make her your partner. You won't regret it!
PS
So you know I have some knowledge below is what I have accomplished with my various German Shepherds. I do know the breed and of what I say.

German Shepherd: Taught her to herd Dairy cattle on my dairy farm. Also taught to herd heifers. Best hand a person could have.

Another German Shepherd American lines with some German Working lines. AKC obedience dog. AKC CGC and AKC CD. Trained to CDX but not trialed. Started on sheep herding.

Another German Shepherd passed her Bh. Trained as a house pet. Spent almost three years in Schutzhund training. Showline dog. A lot of nerve. Decent drives. Took care of my aging Mother.

Another German Shepherd (working kines) trained in IPO (formerly Schutzhund). Titles were Bh, IPO 1-3, Fh 1. The Fh is a tracking title she earned at a tracking Championship. She won the Fh 1 against world competitors.
Current German Shepherd (working lines has his Bh, American Schutzhund BT, AKC CGC, AKC CD, UPr I (Schutzhund obedience title), Fpr 1 (Schutzhund tracking title). Training for IGP 1-3.

Thank you for the advice. However I do not use the e collar unless I absolutely have to if she’s in the fence I don’t just discipline her w the e collar whenever she does something wrong…that would be very bad. The reason I mentioned the invisible fence is because I’m not alway home. I work and I don’t want her to be tied up hours on end so I need something to prevent her from going in there when I am not there.

3GSD4IPO

· #8 · Jan 20, 2022

Stsambounieris said:
Thank you for the advice. However I do not use the e collar unless I absolutely have to if she’s in the fence I don’t just discipline her w the e collar whenever she does something wrong…that would be very bad. The reason I mentioned the invisible fence is because I’m not alway home. I work and I don’t want her to be tied up hours on end so I need something to prevent her from going in there when I am not there.

I did all the stuff I mentioned while working FT (the farm dog was when I was a farmer FT.. the rest I was divorced and had a FT job).

Why don't you buy a good dog kennel with a top on it and a dog house when you are not home? Build a 12x12 deck and put the kennel on that and anchor it.. put a secure top on it with a shade over the top and a dog house for when you are at work?

If you can have the livestock and the fences and housing they require you can have an appropriate outdoor dog kennel. The best have vertical bars the dog cannot climb. Welded wire framed mesh is better than chain link. Must have a wire escape proof top and must have a shade.

Anything less is looking for answers for prevention of a behavior that is self rewarding when no one is there to prevent it.

The only other option is secure livestock fencing which would need to be dog proof.. very expensive.

Your use of the e collar is still unfair and inappropriate (and this is from someone who uses e collars).

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petpeeve

· #9 · Jan 20, 2022

Prey drive is difficult to suppress in dogs that have been designed with prey drive in mind. I can only imagine what punitive methods the board and train is using on your dog to break her of her sheep "killing" habit.

Three weeks without her owner, likely being punished in some way shape or form to say the least, by unfamiliar strangers. Punished, for something that is natural and innate to her.

I'd be terrified she'd come back home a hot mess.

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DaySleepers

· #10 · Jan 20, 2022

I want to add that chasing sheep - especially pregnant sheep - can cause them to become seriously ill or die due to stress alone. Pregnant sheep may also abort due to this kind of stress. I don't know if goats are as sensitive, but chasing livestock should never be tolerated. Imagine if she gets off your property one day and starts going after animals that aren't yours - most farmers do not hesitate to shoot dogs that are threatening their livestock, and it's fully within their legal rights to do so.

I agree that a secure kennel run is likely your best option for when you can't supervise her. More room to move and fewer risks than a tie-out (she can't get tangled and it's much harder to break out of), but it won't allow her to practice dangerous and inappropriate (but perfectly natural) behaviors.

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BigBlackDog

· #11 · Jan 20, 2022

petpeeve said:
Prey drive is difficult to suppress in dogs that have been designed with prey drive in mind.

Just to be clear, German Shepherds are bred to herd livestock, usually sheep, but goats as well. Their style of "herding" differs from many herding breeds, however, as they typically act as a living fence, trotting non stop along the boundaries of a field keeping the animals from crossing the boundary.

It's pretty unique, and beautiful to watch! Yes, they have lots of prey drive, but no it's not suppressed it's channelled.

But it takes lots of training and experience to have a good herding shepherd. You don't just let them loose with the stock and hope for the best!

That being said, I also shudder at the thought of what aversive training may be happening to this pup. It wouldn't have even been a consideration for me, unless I REALLY KNEW the trainer!

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BigBlackDog

· #12 · Jan 20, 2022

Stsambounieris said:
I work and I don’t want her to be tied up hours on end so I need something to prevent her from going in there when I am not there.

A good kennel would be cheaper than.an electric fence. But again, you need to be clear on what you want here. If you want a dog that can accompany you out and help move the goats or sheep around, you absolutely don't want an e-fence. A kennel and some training is what you need.

If you want the dog to 100% never go near the stock, though I would still defer to training, an e-fence might work sufficiently. It just seems like the wrong way to train a dog to me...

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DaySleepers

· #13 · Jan 20, 2022

Yeah, if this dog is going to be off-leash around the livestock with you, whether working them or just hanging out, I'd definitely enlist the help of a trainer who does herding. Preferably one with GSD experience. They're going to have the most tools and experience to be able to help you make progress while also keeping the livestock safe, even if your goal isn't to have a herding dog in the end. Being able to read sheep or goats and make sure nobody is being too stressed by the training is a specialized skill that not every dog trainer will have.

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3GSD4IPO

· #14 · Jan 20, 2022

Without building a relationship you won't build control.

Most German shepherds bred today are not bred with herding in mind. Good herding German Shepherds (they tend sheep which is different than gather and drive) are genetically based.

Most German Shepherds today are bred for either conformation show (and working genetics are often badly watered down) or specifically bred for protection sports or patrol work. Many are not genetically suitable for herding any more. Some can never be trustworthy around livestock.

I have spent a great deal of time with a friend who bred these dogs for tending sheep. She used to maintain a website in both English and German about herding German Shepherds. Her mentor was Manfred Heyne. She bred a dog (Nicky) here in the States that Manfred took back to Germany. This dog tended sheep daily and won high level competitions. I learned what I am sharing here from her. In training they did not use compulsion. The dog either was genetically predisposed to herd or it wasn't. They used Working line dogs.

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3GSD4IPO

· #15 · Jan 20, 2022

Plant Plant community Dog Natural environment Natural landscape

I own this print signed by the artist, Linda Shaw (sadly deceased). I spoke with Linda on the phone before her death. She wrote a heavily illustrated book about the structure of the German Shepherd. The attached image is of Nicky. Interesting that I knew both the painter and the breeder of this dog that Manfred Heyne imported from the US.....

It is very possible the OP's dog would not be suitable for livestock handling or trustworthy around livestock. We would have to know much more about this dog to be able to say anything to that subject.

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DaySleepers

· #16 · Jan 20, 2022

That's all very true. I do follow a GSD breeder who has successfully titled herding dogs from show lines, but I can absolutely believe that most modern GSDs aren't suited for it. I suggested a trainer with herding knowledge more for the sake of the livestock, as I wouldn't expect a trainer who's not used to sheep and goats to be able to accurately assess how to safely introduce this dog to them and, if necessary, make the call that the dog can't ever be trusted around them.

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3GSD4IPO

· #17 · Jan 20, 2022

DaySleepers said:
That's all very true. I do follow a GSD breeder who has successfully titled herding dogs from show lines, but I can absolutely believe that most modern GSDs aren't suited for it. I suggested a trainer with herding knowledge more for the sake of the livestock, as I wouldn't expect a trainer who's not used to sheep and goats to be able to accurately assess how to safely introduce this dog to them and, if necessary, make the call that the dog can't ever be trusted around them.

I know the following from my Friend and experience.

1. Herding has gone over to a lot of show lines. Kerschental used to have great working line GSD's but went over to show lines which make the kennel more money. Show lines typically do not have the all day stamina of the working line herding dog. Alas, the Schafermeister taking the village sheep out on the graze all summer is a thing of the past so the stamina is no longer as necessary.

2. With every livestock killed a dog is less likely to ever be a tending dog or reliable with livestock. In fact, such actions by a dog when the Shafermeister was a real service would have the dog culled.

3. A herding German Shepherd needs a genetically stable, deep grip (bite). This is favored to this day in protection sport and working k9's. A partial, chewy, slip grip will hurt a sheep's skin which is counter to the job at hand (caring for sheep). A partial,chewy, slip grip also is a very good indication of the genetic temperament of the dog (weak nerves and genetic conflict being the primary cause).

I hope the OP finds a solution and works with their dog. I would LOVE to see this dog's pedigree/lineage.

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Toedtoes

· #18 · Jan 20, 2022

3GSD4IPO said:
2. With every livestock killed a dog is less likely to ever be a tending dog or reliable with livestock. In fact, such actions by a dog when the Shafermeister was a real service would have the dog culled.

For clarity, this is not the same as the old "once a dog gets the taste of blood, it will keep killing". This is specifically in regards to working dogs and killing what they are meant to protect, control, etc. If a working dog shows a drive to kill the livestock, it is showing a temperament not suitable for the job.

Inflicting pain and punishment on another creature for the purpose of control or sport is abuse - plain and simple.
“Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man.” ― Arthur Schopenhauer
“Animals are more than ever a test of our character, of mankind's capacity for empathy and for decent, honorable conduct and faithful stewardship. We are called to treat them with kindness, not because they have rights or power or some claim to equality, but in a sense because they don't; because they all stand unequal and powerless before us.” ― Matthew Scully
“The assumption that animals are without rights and the illusion that our treatment of them has no moral significance is a positively outrageous example of Western crudity and barbarity. Universal compassion is the only guarantee of morality.” ― Arthur Schopenhaur

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3GSD4IPO

· #19 · Jan 20, 2022

Toedtoes said:
For clarity, this is not the same as the old "once a dog gets the taste of blood, it will keep killing". This is specifically in regards to working dogs and killing what they are meant to protect, control, etc. If a working dog shows a drive to kill the livestock, it is showing a temperament not suitable for the job.

Yes. TY for clarifying. That "tastes blood = killer dog" is a grand and inaccurate old tyme misconception.

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Stsambounieris

Discussion Starter · #20 · Jan 21, 2022

3GSD4IPO said:
FWIW if you want a dog to handle livestock you must first develop that partnership I mention above. That dog that herded cattle for me was like an extension of my right hand. I could work cattle with the horse and that dog. They helped each other.

She did other amazing things. She was a comfort to small children.. she would crawl up to them so they would not be afraid of a big dog.

Please, if you do not want to buy into the effort making this dog your partner, please return her to her breeder.

I’m not giving up on this dog. I sent her to training so she can learn the basic commands. She has acres and acres to run on plenty of water and food she has another dog as company I just don’t feel confident to even let her free right now even when I’m around bc I am afraid she will go after the stock.

3GSD4IPO said:
I did all the stuff I mentioned while working FT (the farm dog was when I was a farmer FT.. the rest I was divorced and had a FT job).

Why don't you buy a good dog kennel with a top on it and a dog house when you are not home? Build a 12x12 deck and put the kennel on that and anchor it.. put a secure top on it with a shade over the top and a dog house for when you are at work?

If you can have the livestock and the fences and housing they require you can have an appropriate outdoor dog kennel. The best have vertical bars the dog cannot climb. Welded wire framed mesh is better than chain link. Must have a wire escape proof top and must have a shade.

Anything less is looking for answers for prevention of a behavior that is self rewarding when no one is there to prevent it.

The only other option is secure livestock fencing which would need to be dog proof.. very expensive.

Your use of the e collar is still unfair and inappropriate (and this is from someone who uses e collars).

she has an 8x8 kennel with rubber mats down a dog house in there and yet she finds ways to get out. Last time she was in there she learned how to open the door 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

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