[Knute]

First of the month chores for my mini-schnauzer.

Saturday
Deshedding, slicker brush, comb.
Bath
slicker brush, comb.
rest.
Toe nails
Teeth brush

Sunday,
Scissor grooming, Face, leg furnishings, inside of ears.
Clipper grooming, Sanitary, head and ear flaps.
1 of 3 worming treatment for whip, hook, round and tape

Tonight,
2 of 3 worming treatment.
Teeth brush
begin stripping his coat.

He does get regular brush/comb, teeth brushing 2-3X each week and nail trimming (1X each week).

After the 3 of 3 worming treatment, the following day will be the Heart Worm treatment. I expect the coat stripping will take most of the week. I've never done coat stripping and I don't know how Shadow will react. He has always been clipped, but I'd like his wire hair to become more dominant. The stripping may help prevent the comdone problem.

I don't push him too hard on the grooming table. Never more than 1 hour before a break and many high value treats during the hour. He is really excited for the dried beef, duck or chicken jerky bites. This Sunday, I spent 20 minutes on one front paw to dig out a sticky mat of goo wedged between the main pad and the toe pads. Don't know what he stepped in, but is was nasty sticky, soft gooey......probably some chewing gum. Anyhow, several attempts and treats helped to remove the gooey mat.

When done for the day, we have a play, a bit of training, a walk, then rest when he requires me to pay a high belly rub tax.

All said and done, his monthly detail grooming takes about 3-4 hours broken up over 2 days. Its amazing how much hair will come off a 14 lb mini-schnauzer in a month. Sure glad he doesn't shed.

 

[parus]

Monthly deworming (besides the scheduled heartworm preventative) seems like a lot to me, particularly for an indoor dog on a cooked human-food diet. Is that a schedule you've discussed with a vet?

 

[Knute]

Parus, thanks for your observation and concern. Yes, I have discussed with my Vet.

The treatment for the round, whip, hook and some tape worms is Fenbendazole in a 10% solution for goats. I confirmed the dosage with my Vet. My dog requires 3 consecutive days of 3 ml/day mixed with his meal. The dosage is based on the dog's weight. Fenbendazole is eliminated from the dog within 48 hours and it only targets the worms. It remains in the digestive tract, doesn't pass into the bloodstream.

The treatment for heart worm is Ivermectin. This combination with the Fenbendazole has been confirmed with my Vet. The Ivermectin will target the heartworms and the tape worms the Fenbendazole doesn't get. Ivermectin will pass into the bloodstream.

Yes, my dog spends much time indoors. Our risk is during walks for the worms. Many "snacks" are available on the sidewalks, around trees, landscaping....... It is a very short journey from a mini-schnauzer nose to the mouth down the hatch. I do my best with commands "Pass", "Drop it", but in reality I can not prevent everything.

The heartworm is transmitted by mosquito who has bitten another infected dog. Most dogs in China are not treated or vaccinated. Mosquitos are still present and active. heartworm is present in this region. Fortunately, the season is beginning to cool so the mini-vampires are starting to abate. The windows to my home are open most of the time. Yes, mosquitos do manage to find their way to the 20th floor and are in my home.

I haven't had a mosquito in about a month in my home. I will probably do the December heartworm, then stop until the weather warms. Mosquitos return in April, so treatment will begin in March. It is cool enough that the windows remain closed 90% of the time.


Ivermectin does not target all the parasites, neither does the Fenbendazole. But using both, I have a very effective prevention process with minimum dosage.

 

[CptJack]

The only thing your dog could be eating that would give it worms are the feces from infected dogs, or wild animals.

That seems kind of unlikely on a leashed walk.

Even my dog who actively hunted wild animals off leash in deep woods my vet advised doing a fecal every month or two. He ended up needing to be dewormed about once a year.

So. Still overkill.

And not without risks. Fenbendazole is ROUGH on liver and kidneys. So at bare minimum you need to be doing SUPER regular bloodwork to watch those values if you're going to keep this regime.

 

[Knute]

Cpt, I appreciate your insights.

Please understand, this area in China is abundant with animal/human feces in readily accessible places during leashed walks. AS I have said, most animals in China are not treated nor vaccinated.

I personally know 3 people who have had dogs contract parvovirus, only 1 survived after a lengthy stay at the Vet Hospital. I know 8 people with pets (cats and dogs) that have had serious worm infestations, 3 did not survive. Many street dogs, many dogs with parasites (fleas, ticks, mange...). The vermin population is very high due the amount of food that is improperly tossed. Rats are very common, some are in the 1 kg size range.

My point is there are numerous sources for these parasites to exist and be contracted. A prevention program is less detrimental than a curative program.

The USA has a much better hygiene and health situation than China. This is a suburb of a major city, population about 2 M, the City has about 25 M. Many people have come from the interior of China off farms, they are "eliminating" in the streets, bushes, sidewalks....... They treat their pets as either fashion accessories or as livestock. Very little care is provided to pets.

I'll remain on this regime until my Vet offers another treatment. Based on my understanding of Fenbendazole, it remains in the digestive tract and does not interact with the dog. My Vet detailed the interaction and I confirmed with independent research. I trust, but verify.

 

[parus]

Your deworming regimen is between you and your vet, but fenbendazole IS absorbed through the intestines (poorly, but some does pass over) and it IS processed by the liver into other toxins and it CAN cause renal issues. It's possible for dogs to have a lethal overdose on it, which clearly means it does "interact" with the dog.

All the stuff about parvo, other dogs' vaccinations, etc. is not really relevant to the question of worming, which is a different concern. A dog can have a few worms, but they can't have a touch of parvo or a mild case of rabies. (Heartworm prevention is also a separate question.) Healthy adult dogs can generally resist a certain amount of digestive parasite exposure and also don't need to be rigorously 100% worm free at all times - it's common for them to carry some roundworms, for example, which is why puppies need to be dewormed even if they've never been away from mom. AFAIK it would be very unusual for a healthy, cared-for pet adult dog to develop a serious worm infestation in a matter of months or even a year, and even more unusual to do so without having showed clear warning signs along the way.

For comparison, my dogs eat grotesque wilderness things regularly (despite my best efforts) - basically every wild animal has plenty of parasites - and they get routinely dewormed twice per year at most.

YMMV but just something to think about.

 

[Knute]

Parus, in fact you are correct. Any chemical can lead to overdose and death, including water.

Fenbendazole has been studied in many animals, reptiles and fish. In animals, the studies were not able to determine the LD50 limit for overdose. This was at dosage levels 10-20 times for 2X the treatment period. I'm not sure about the LD50 limit in reptiles or fish, I wasn't able to find study results. Other studies have determined that Fenbendazole remains in the subject for 24-48 hours, then is eliminated mostly by fecal and the rest in urine. The studies did not make mention or show evidence of "renal issues".

A study with rats injected with tumor producing cells, then treated with heavy doses of Fenbendazole showed some possible link to liver tumors, but the study was inconclusive.

The recommended dosage from my Vet is 50 mg/kg. So, to begin to approach the LD50 "lethal overdose", I would need to give 500-1000 mg/kg. Meaning 10% solution (100 mg/ml) would require administering 5-10 ml/kg. My 6 kg dog would need to receive 30-60 ml each day for 3 consecutive days. I tend to believe anyone with any sense would consider this an extreme amount.

My point is overdosing with Fenbendazole would be extremely difficult. Also, studies have not shown a link to "renal issues" and Fenbendazole.

I shall reiterate my point regarding "All the stuff about parvo, other dogs' vaccinations...." is to provide examples of "...numerous sources for these parasites to exist and be contracted." Another point to examine is the heavy population of rats in this area. Rats are known carriers of Helminths (like round worms and tape worms). The abundance of the sources for worms is relevant to the need for a preventative regime

In reality, Ivermectin has much greater lethality than fenbendazole.

 

[parus]

Okey-dokey. I'm not even going to get into the water thing, because no one likes an OT tirade, lol. Since there's no way to have a real discussion with Dr. Google, I might as well drop this. But if you do see a different vet at some point, please do ask them how many times per year they recommend preventatively worming a dog.

 

[storyist]

Wouldn't regular fecal tests be an alternative?

 

[Knute]

Dr. Google or water thing or OT tirade aside.

Facts are facts. Vet in USA and my local Vet have verified this regime is appropriate.

Thanks just the same for the discussion.

 

[Sanne]

I too am in the "deworm as needed" camp and my vet does not recommend monthly deworming. I live next to the woods with all kinds of wildlife, and if found dead it's fair game to my dog! We also live next to farms and where I'm from, cattle and sheep often roam with no fence. Free barnyard poop! lol. Even still my vet does not think monthly deworming is necessary and I agree with her.

Worms are gross but hardly an issue for a healthy dog, they are very easy to treat and short lived once treated. I treat my dogs about three times a year. If they did not have easy access to wild bunnies and livestock crap I would not even bother. I get a fecal test done if Zuna has gotten into something particularly gross. Never has one came up positive, I just treat threeish times a year to play it safe so I do not have to have her tested EVERY single time she eats something.

It just does not sit well with me to treat my dog for something every single month just because she might catch it. Makes more sense to me to test and treat as needed but to each their own. Obviously this does not apply to heartworm of course, which is very difficult to treat thus worth it to treat regularly. Luckily, heartworm is not really a issue here.

 

[Knute]

Round worms become egg producing adult in roughly 4 weeks. Hook worms become egg producing adults in about 6 weeks. Whipworms become egg producing adults in about 12 weeks. All come into the dog typically by ingestion.

Tape worms come from ingesting an infected flea. Fleas are hosts to a life cycle stage of the tapeworm.

Heart worms come from mosquito who has bitten an infected animal. Heart worms use the mosquito for a life cycle stage.


If you are treating for round, hook or whip worms 3X each year, then the dog could be host to egg producing adults to excrete the eggs in feces. Continuing the life cycle of the parasites.

 

[Sanne]

And that is what a fecal test is for, as I (and a few others) have already stated. That is the route I go. Test before treat. I don't treat without a cause. If the test is positive, dewormed. Negative? Then all is fine and my dogs are not treated for what they don't have.