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Discussion Starter · #61 ·
If they're on the smaller side, and they're not MASes or mini Aussies, what are they?
 

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If they're on the smaller side, and they're not MASes or mini Aussies, what are they?
That's the trouble with the Mini Aussie/MAS/Aussie controversy lol. They're all just labels it doesn't really mean much in the end. You could call them Aussies or Mini Aussies I suppose. The breeder does not mind either but does not like the term, MAS because it implies that it's a separate breed, which it is not (her stock anyway).
 

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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
What's the difference between her stock of "small Aussies" and others? I mean, why doesn't she like the term MAS? She sounds like a pretty good breeder, with all the health testing.
 

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What's the difference between her stock of "small Aussies" and others? I mean, why doesn't she like the term MAS? She sounds like a pretty good breeder, with all the health testing.
MAS (Miniature American Shepherd), implies that it's a separate breed from Australian Shepherds (which they aren't).
 

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I believe with the standardization of breeding, there will eventually be enough split to justify the different breed names. Until then, you will continue to get a whole lot of poorly bred "Aussies". (Not referring to your breeder specifically!! No idea about their practices, etc).
 

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I believe with the standardization of breeding, there will eventually be enough split to justify the different breed names. Until then, you will continue to get a whole lot of poorly bred "Aussies". (Not referring to your breeder specifically!! No idea about their practices, etc).
I agree, there is already a split in the MAS, the people who went "mini aussie" are mostly breeders I personally wouldnt buy from.
 

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Discussion Starter · #68 ·
Ohhh, I get it now. That's very confusing lol. Owned by Acds? How was Lincoln when he was a puppy?
 

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If they're on the smaller side, and they're not MASes or mini Aussies, what are they?
Aussies ... nothing more and nothing less, aussies have NO "offical" size constraints, they have a preferred size margin, but quality is not to be sacrificed for size.

If you dont believe me, here is the aussie standard, as c/p from the ASCA website:

INTRODUCTION: First and foremost, the Australian Shepherd is a true working stockdog, and anything that detracts from his usefulness as such is undesirable. The most important breed characteristics are overall moderation in size and bone, balance with correct proportions, and sound movement

GENERAL APPEARANCE: The Australian Shepherd is a well-balanced dog of medium size and bone. He is attentive and animated, showing strength and stamina combined with unusual agility. Slightly longer than tall, he has a coat of moderate length and coarseness with coloring that offers variety and individuality in each specimen. An identifying characteristic is his natural or docked bobtail. In each sex, masculinity or femininity is well defined.

CHARACTER: The Australian Shepherd is primarily a working dog of strong herding and guardian instincts. He is an intelligent, exceptional companion. He is versatile and easily trained: performing his assigned tasks with great style and enthusiasm. He is reserved with strangers but does not exhibit shyness. This unusually versatile stockdog works with the power and quickness to control difficult cattle as well as the ability to move sheep without unnecessary roughness. Although an aggressive, authoritative worker, viciousness toward people or animals is intolerable.

HEAD: The head is clean-cut, strong, dry, and in proportion to the body. The topskull is flat to slightly rounded; its length and width each equal to the length of the muzzle. The muzzle is of medium width and depth and tapers gradually to a rounded tip, without appearing heavy or snipey. Lips are close fitting, meeting at the mouthline. The toplines of the muzzle and topskull appear close to parallel. The stop is moderate but well defined.
TEETH: A full complement of strong white teeth meet in a scissors bite. A level bite is a fault. Teeth broken or missing by accident are not penalized. All other missing teeth should be faulted to the degree that they deviate from a full complement of 42 teeth.

DISQUALIFICATIONS: Undershot bite, Overshot bite, Wry Mouth

EYES: The eyes are very expressive, showing attentiveness and intelligence. They are clear, almond-shaped, of moderate size, and set a little obliquely, neither prominent nor sunken. The pupils are dark, well defined, and perfectly positioned. Eye color is brown, blue, amber; or any variation or combination, including flecks and marbling. All eye colors are acceptable in combination with all coat colors.
Faults: Any deviation from almond-shaped eyes.

EARS: The ears are set high on the side of the head, are triangular, of moderate size and slightly rounded at the tip. The tip of the ear reaches to, but not further than, the inside corner of the nearest eye. At full attention, the ears should lift from one-quarter (1/4) to one-half (1/2) above the base and break forward or slightly to the side.
Severe Faults: Prick ears; overly large ears; low set ears with no lift from the base.

NECK AND BODY: The neck is firm, clean, and in proportion to the body. It is of medium length and slightly arched at the crest, setting well into the shoulders. The body is firm and muscular. The topline appears level at a natural four-square stance. The bottom line carries well back with a moderate tuck-up. The chest is deep and strong with ribs well sprung. The loin is strong and broad when viewed from the top. The croup is moderately sloping. The Tail is straight, not to exceed four (4) inches, natural bobtail or docked.

FOREQUARTERS: The shoulder blades (scapula) are well laid back, with the upper arm (humerus) slightly longer than the shoulder blade. Both the upper arm and shoulder blade are well muscled. The forelegs are straight and strong, perpendicular to the ground, with moderate bone. The point of the elbow is set under the withers and is equidistant from the withers to the ground. Pasterns are short, thick, and strong, but still flexible, showing a slight angle when viewed from the side. Feet are oval shaped, compact, with close knit, well-arched toes. Pads are thick and resilient; nails short and strong. Dewclaws may be removed.

HINDQUARTERS: Width of hindquarters is approximately equal to the width of the forequarters at the shoulder. The angulation of the pelvis and upper thigh (femur) corresponds to the angulation of the shoulder blade and upper arm. The upper and lower thigh are well muscled. Stifles are clearly defined; hock joints moderately bent. The metatarsi are short, perpendicular to the ground, and parallel to each other when viewed from the rear. Feet are oval shaped, compact, with close-knit, well-arched toes. Pads are thick and resilient; nails short and strong. Rear dewclaws are removed.

COAT: The coat is of medium length and texture, straight to slightly wavy, and weather resistant. The undercoat varies in quantity with climate. Hair is short and smooth on the head, outside of ears, front of forelegs, and below the hocks. Backs of forelegs are moderately feathered and breeches are moderately full. There is a moderate mane, more pronounced in dogs than bitches. The Australian Shepherd is a working dog and is to be shown with a natural coat.
Severe Faults: Non-typical coats such as excessively long; overabundant/profuse; wiry; or curly.

COLOR: All colors are strong, clear and rich. The recognized colors are blue merle, red (liver) merle, solid black, and solid red (liver) all with or without white markings and/or tan (copper) points with no order of preference. The blue merle and black have black pigmentation on nose, lips and eye-rims. Reds and red merles have liver pigmentation on nose, lips and eye rims. Butterfly nose should not be faulted under one year of age. On all colors the areas surrounding the ears and eyes are dominated by color other than white. The hairline of a white collar does not exceed the point at the withers.
Disqualifications: Other than recognized colors. White body splashes. Dudley nose.

GAIT: Smooth, free, and easy, exhibiting agility of movement with a well-balanced natural stride. As speed increases, both front and rear feet converge equally toward the centerline of gravity beneath the body. The top line remains firm and level. When viewed from the side the trot is effortless, exhibiting facility of movement rather than a hard driving action. Exaggerated reach and drive at the trot are not desirable. Gait faults shall be penalized according to the degree of deviation from the ideal.

SIZE: Preferred height at the withers for males is 20 to 23 inches; that for females is 18 to 21 inches, however, quality is not to be sacrificed in favor of size.

In contrast, here is the MAS breed standard:

General Appearance: The Miniature American Shepherd is a small size herding dog that originated in the United States. He is slightly longer than tall with bone that is moderate and in proportion to body size and height without extremes. Movement is smooth, easy, and balanced. Exceptional agility combined with strength and stamina allows for working over a variety of terrain. This highly versatile, energetic dog makes an excellent athlete with superior intelligence and a willingness to please those to whom he is devoted. He is both a loyal companion and a biddable worker, which is evident in his watchful expression. The double coat of medium length and coarseness may be solid in color or merled, with or without white and/or tan (copper) markings. He traditionally has a docked or natural bobtail.

Size, Proportion and Substance:

Size: Height for dogs is 14 inches up to and including 18 inches at the top of the withers. Height for bitches is 13 inches up to and including 17 inches at the top of withers. Disqualification: under 14 inches and over 18 inches for dogs; under 13 inches and over 17 inches for bitches. The minimum heights set forth in this breed standard shall not apply to dogs or bitches under six months of age. Proportion: Measuring from the point of the shoulder to the point of the buttocks and from the highest point of the shoulder blade to the ground, he is slightly longer than tall. Substance: Solidly built with moderate bone in proportion to body height and size. Structure in the dog reflects masculinity without coarseness. Bitches appear feminine without being slight of bone.

Head: the head is clean-cut, dry, and in proportion to the body.

Expression: Alert, attentive and intelligent. May express a reserved look and/or be watchful of strangers. Eyes: The eyes are set obliquely, almond shaped, neither protruding nor sunken and in proportion to the head. Acceptable in all coat colors, one or both eyes may be brown, blue, hazel, amber or any color combination thereof, including flecks and marbling. The eye rims of the reds and red merles have full red (liver) pigmentation. The eye rims of the blacks and blue merles have full black pigmentation.

Ears: Are triangular, of moderate size, set high on the head. At full attention they break forward and over, or to the side as a rose ear.

Severe Fault: Prick ears and ears that hang with no lift.

Skull: The crown is flat to slightly round and may show a slight occipital protuberance. The width and the length of the crown are equal. Stop: The stop is moderate but defined.

Muzzle: The muzzle is of medium width and depth and tapers gradually to a rounded tip without appearing heavy, square, snipy, or loose. Length is equal to the length of the crown.

Planes: Viewed from the side, the muzzle and the top line of the crown are slightly oblique to each other, with the front of the crown on a slight angle downward toward the nose.

Nose: Red merles and reds have red (liver) pigmentation on the nose leather. Blue merles and blacks have black pigmentation on the nose leather. Fully pigmented noses are preferred. Noses that are less than fully pigmented will be faulted. Severe Fault: 25-50% un-pigmented nose leather. Disqualification: Over 50% un-pigmented nose leather.

Bite: A full complement of teeth meet in a scissor bite. Teeth broken, missing or discolored by accident are not penalized. Disqualification: Undershot or overshot bite.

Neck, Topline and Body:The overall structure gives an impression of depth and strength without bulkiness. Neck: The neck is firm, clean, and in proportion to the body. It is of medium length and slightly arched at the crest, fitting well into the shoulders. Topline: The back is firm and level from the withers to the hip joint when standing or moving. Loin: The loin is strong and broad when viewed from the top. Croup: The croup is moderately sloped. Body: The body is firm and well conditioned. Chest and Ribs: The chest is full and deep, reaching to the elbow, with well sprung ribs. Underline: The underline shows a moderate tuck-up. Tail: A docked or natural bobtail is preferred. A docked tail is straight, not to exceed three (3) inches. The undocked tail when at rest may hang in a slight curve. When excited or in motion the tail may be carried raised with the curve accentuated.

Forequarters: The forequarters are well conditioned and balanced with the hindquarters. Shoulders: Shoulder blades (scapula) are long, flat, fairly close set at the withers, and well laid back. Upper arm: The upper arm (humerus) is equal in length to the shoulder blade and meets the shoulder blade at an approximate right angle. The forelegs drop straight and perpendicular to the ground. Elbow: The elbow joint is equidistant from the ground to the withers. Viewed from the side, the elbow should be directly under the withers. The elbows should be close to the ribs without looseness. Legs: The legs are straight and strong. The bone is oval rather than round. Pasterns: Short, thick and strong, but still flexible, showing a slight angle when viewed from the side. Feet: Oval shaped, compact, with close-knit, well-arched toes. Pads are thick and resilient; nails are short and strong. The nails may be any color combination. Dewclaws should be removed.

Hindquarters: Width of hindquarters is approximately equal to the width of the forequarters at the shoulders. Angulation: The angulation of the pelvis and upper thigh (femur) mirrors the angulation of the shoulder blade and upper arm, forming an approximate right angle. Stifle: Stifles are clearly defined. Hock: The hocks are short, perpendicular to the ground and parallel to each other when viewed from the rear. Feet: Feet are oval, compact, with close knit, well arched toes. Pads are thick and resilient; nails are short and strong. The nails may be any color combination. Rear dewclaws should be removed.

Coat:Moderation is the overall impression of the coat. Hair is of medium texture, straight to wavy, weather resistant, and of medium length. The undercoat varies in quantity with variations in climate. Hair is short and smooth on the head and front of the legs. The backs of forelegs and breeches are moderately feathered. There is a moderate mane and frill, more pronounced in dogs than in bitches. Hair may be trimmed on the ears, feet, back of hocks, pasterns, and tail, otherwise he is to be shown in a natural coat. Untrimmed whiskers are preferred. Severe Fault: Non-typical coats.

Color:The coloring offers variety and individuality. With no order of preference, the recognized colors are black, blue merle, red (liver) and red merle. The merle will exhibit in any amount, marbling, flecks or blotches. Undercoats may be somewhat lighter in color than the topcoat. Asymmetrical markings are not to be faulted. Tan Markings: Tan markings are not required but when present are acceptable in any or all of the following areas; around the eyes, on the feet, legs, chest, muzzle, underside of neck, face, underside of ear, underline of body, under the base of the tail and the breeches. Tan markings vary in shades from creamy beige to dark rust, with no preference. Blending with the base color or merle pattern may be present on the face, legs, feet, and breeches. White Markings: White markings are not required but when present do not dominate. Ticking may be present in white markings. White on the head does not predominate, and the eyes are fully surrounded by color and pigment. Red merles and reds have red (liver) pigmentation on the eye rims. Blue merles and blacks have black pigmentation on the eye rims. Ears fully covered by color are preferred. Severe Fault: White markings covering over 25% of an ear. White markings may be in any combination and are restricted to: the muzzle, cheeks, crown, blaze on head, the neck in a partial or full collar, chest, belly, front legs, hind legs up the hock and may extend in a thin outline of the stifle. A small amount of white extending from the underline may be visible from the side, not to exceed one inch above the elbow. The hairline of a white collar does not exceed the withers at the skin. If a natural undocked tail is present, the tip of the tail may have white. Disqualifications: Other than recognized colors. White body splashes, which means any conspicuous, isolated spot or patch of white on the area between withers and tail, on back, or sides between elbows and back of hindquarters.

Gait:Smooth, free, and easy; exhibiting agility of movement with a well-balanced, ground-covering stride. Fore and hind legs move straight and parallel with the center line of the body; as speed increases, the feet, both front and rear, converge toward the center line of gravity of the dog, while the back remains firm and level. When traveling at a trot the head is carried in a natural position with neck extended forward and head nearly level or slightly above the topline. He must be agile and able to turn direction or alter gait instantly.

Temperament:The Miniature American Shepherd is intelligent, primarily a working dog of strong herding and guardian instincts. An exceptional companion, he is versatile and easily trained, performing his assigned tasks with great style and enthusiasm. Although reserved with strangers, he does not exhibit shyness. He is a resilient and persistent worker, who adjusts his demeanor and arousal appropriately to the task at hand. With his family he is protective, good natured, devoted and loyal.

DISQUALIFICATIONS: Under 14 inches and over 18 inches for dogs; under 13 inches and over 17 inches for bitches. The minimum heights set forth in this breed standard shall not apply to dogs or bitches under six months of age.
Over 50% un-pigmented nose leather.
Undershot or overshot bite.
Other than recognized colors. White body splashes, which means any conspicuous, isolated spot or patch of white on the area between withers and tail, on back, or sides between elbows and back of hindquarters.

AKC One-time DISQUALIFICATIONS:
Blindness
Deafness
Castration, spayed
Changed by artificial means
Attacks or vicious behavior

AKC Three-time DISQUALIFICATIONS:
Undescended testicles
Testicles not present
 

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Discussion Starter · #70 ·
Wow, quite a difference!
 

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I believe with the standardization of breeding, there will eventually be enough split to justify the different breed names. Until then, you will continue to get a whole lot of poorly bred "Aussies". (Not referring to your breeder specifically!! No idea about their practices, etc).
Sure it's just not my concern, you know? I'm not interested in showing I just want a good and healthy dog from someone who cares about what they're doing. She fits that. We all have different ideas of what a good/bad breeder is but that doesn't mean there are some concrete things we can all agree on and it's that the dogs and puppies from the said breeder should be bred and reared with the proper health checks and care.


I agree, there is already a split in the MAS, the people who went "mini aussie" are mostly breeders I personally wouldnt buy from.
Well it's just not the same across the border. There are very few breeders who call Mini Aussies "MAS" here and I have met quite a few and they've all been knowledgeable and caring people who care about what they are bringing to the world. Most of these breeders are not concerned with showing but are concerned with the health and working ability of the dogs. Mini Aussies are almost exclusively owned by dog sport homes here and breeders are far and few between, even less for reputable breeders. There are only two I trust and it's this one and my agility instructor lol. So since you know nothing about my breeder and since no one asked you to validate my choice in breeder I ask that we no longer derail this thread lol!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #72 ·
Yeah, let's get back to MASes and not her choice of breeder.
 

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Sure it's just not my concern, you know? I'm not interested in showing I just want a good and healthy dog from someone who cares about what they're doing. She fits that. We all have different ideas of what a good/bad breeder is but that doesn't mean there are some concrete things we can all agree on and it's that the dogs and puppies from the said breeder should be bred and reared with the proper health checks and care.




Well it's just not the same across the border. There are very few breeders who call Mini Aussies "MAS" here and I have met quite a few and they've all been knowledgeable and caring people who care about what they are bringing to the world. Most of these breeders are not concerned with showing but are concerned with the health and working ability of the dogs. Mini Aussies are almost exclusively owned by dog sport homes here and breeders are far and few between, even less for reputable breeders. There are only two I trust and it's this one and my agility instructor lol. So since you know nothing about my breeder and since no one asked you to validate my choice in breeder I ask that we no longer derail this thread lol!!
I agree, we can always make a "MAS vs 'mini aussies' " thread, I suppose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
Ugh, I still can't choose! Dynasty is a very local and great breeder, but I heard better from Wigglebutts but they are farther away!
 

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I agree, we can always make a "MAS vs 'mini aussies' " thread, I suppose.
I think we all know just about how well that'd turn out haha.

Ugh, I still can't choose! Dynasty is a very local and great breeder, but I heard better from Wigglebutts but they are farther away!
No rush!! It sounds like you've only just started looking. If they have any public social media, then follow those and also consider shooting an email to them explaining your situation, etc. You'll be able to get a better feel for them and their dogs by personally speaking with them as opposed to reading off of a carefully made website.
 

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I think we all know just about how well that'd turn out haha.



No rush!! It sounds like you've only just started looking. If they have any public social media, then follow those and also consider shooting an email to them explaining your situation, etc. You'll be able to get a better feel for them and their dogs by personally speaking with them as opposed to reading off of a carefully made website.
This, contacting a breeder early conveys your interest, at least IMO
 

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Discussion Starter · #78 ·
Yeah, I will! I think I like Wigglebutts a little better. Road trip for me I guess, heh.
 

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Discussion Starter · #80 ·
I'm looking for a pet.
 
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