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Discussion starter · #42 ·
Well, that's good to know! Aren't you getting a MAS puppy next year?
 
Well, that's good to know! Aren't you getting a MAS puppy next year?
Technically the dog will just be a registered Australian Shepherd, but of a smaller "mini" size. The breeder does not believe in registering them as MAS because she does not want to imply that it's a different breed. -- All this stuff is a whole can of worms though (people have very strong opinions lol). But... in short, yes, I will be getting a Mini Aussie :p
 
Discussion starter · #44 ·
Technically the dog will just be a registered Australian Shepherd, but of a smaller "mini" size. The breeder does not believe in registering them as MAS because she does not want to imply that it's a different breed. -- All this stuff is a whole can of worms though (people have very strong opinions lol). But... in short, yes, I will be getting a Mini Aussie :p
Yay! That's so cool!
 
Why a MAS over a Sheltie?
Just popped into my head. Really never connected the dots before but Shelties, mini Aussies? Not much different so long as you go for working/sporting lines.

At agility I've met lots of Aussies, a few mini Aussies and lots of Shelties. All bark a lot, all are wonderful smart funny bouncy dogs and usually excel in agility. Shelties are a more established breed than NAS or MAS or mini Aussies, whichever line you are looking at, and close to size and temperament and all so far as I can tell. Health maybe?

I'd be hard pressed to choose between NAS with a tail and a Sheltie.
No, no and no. MAS are NOTHING like a sheltie. No mopre than a collie is like an aussie.

Honestly, if it's important to you the puppy is the opposite of what you want. No amount of raising it 'right' is going to change a dog's basic temperament. It's not going to make a shy, aloof, sensitive dog harder or the reverse.

I love puppies, but you really have to be willing to (to some degree) take what you get.
This. I would talk with the breeder, tell them what you want in a dog and what kind of temperament best suits you as a person (you might have to think about this long and hard, I know I did).

Take me for example: I need a very "type A" kind of dog, a confident dog who isnt phased by my anxiety, or my outbursts due to my ADHD, he cant be startled by sudden movements (I jump up a lot when I remember something lmao). I also have a very commanding presence and a dog has to be able to deal with that and not fold.

Technically the dog will just be a registered Australian Shepherd, but of a smaller "mini" size. The breeder does not believe in registering them as MAS because she does not want to imply that it's a different breed. -- All this stuff is a whole can of worms though (people have very strong opinions lol). But... in short, yes, I will be getting a Mini Aussie :p
I dont know if I would feel comfortable buying from that breeder.
 
I dont know if I would feel comfortable buying from that breeder.
Why? She tests eyes, hips, knees and checks for the MDR-1 gene, she has a specific breeding goal and titles all dogs in her breeding program. The only difference is that she chooses to register them with the ASCA because she breeds both larger and smaller Aussies. MAS have a very limited gene pool across the border here in Canada, she wouldn't be able to do nearly as much with MASCA registered dogs.

Differences in opinion as to whether Aussies of smaller stature should be classified a different breed is simply an opinion, not a testament to how reputable a breeder is. Aussies are working dogs in the end, regardless of size, and before standardization (and even now) they have come in a variety of sizes. Why would it make her not reputable for choosing to call her dogs Aussies, which is what they essentially are?
 
But aussies do have a minimum size requirement, they dont have a maximum.

Differences in opinion as to whether Aussies of smaller stature should be classified a different breed is simply an opinion, not a testament to how reputable a breeder is. Aussies are working dogs in the end, regardless of size, and before standardization (and even now) they have come in a variety of sizes. Why would it make her not reputable for choosing to call her dogs Aussies, which is what they essentially are?
It does here in the states, here a MAS breeder who operated like that would be frowned upon.
 
Are MASes fragile at all?
Some of the Minis and toys I know are tiny and fine boned. There is a breeder nearby that breeds both and her dogs are common in sports here. There's a couple Mini American Shepherd breeders here too and while their dogs are bigger and more aussie like (all look like aussies) a couple are still small (15 lbs or so) and one is pretty timid and soft. To be honest, I would say a good number of the Mini Aussies, Toy Aussies, Mini Americans are very soft/timid dogs. An equal number aren't and are outgoing and crazy. I will say the bolder ones all seem to be bigger dogs.
 
But aussies do have a minimum size requirement, they dont have a maximum.



It does here in the states, here a MAS breeder who operated like that would be frowned upon.
Per breed standard if you show the dog... not if you are getting a working dog??? There is a maximum size for showing Aussies, it's 23" for males and 21" for females (Check AKC and ASCA).

She doesn't claim to be a MAS breeder so she isn't one?? And what is the problem exactly, like why would it be frowned upon? You're not really answering why...
 
Per breed standard if you show the dog... not if you are getting a working dog??? There is a maximum size for showing Aussies, it's 23" for males and 21" for females (Check AKC and ASCA).

She doesn't claim to be a MAS breeder so she isn't one?? And what is the problem exactly, like why would it be frowned upon? You're not really answering why...
Yeah, there would be no problem with an Aussie breeder breeding small dogs that worked and were what they wanted - like at all. There might be some frowning if they promoted themselves as breeding 'mini aussies', since well, size as the primary goal from breeding isn't something a lot of folk love for lots of reasons, but breeding smaller aussies in and of itself isn't an issue.

Since she's... well, an aussie breeder. I think maybe some of the people who are confused here are confused because they're not getting that you are getting an *AUSSIE*, not a MAS.

*ETA:* Also both AKC and ASCA say:
SIZE: Preferred height at the withers for males is 20 to 23 inches; that for females is 18 to 21 inches, however, quality is not to be sacrificed in favor of size.

Which means pretty much there's no DQ for size. Preference, yes, basically being 'medium', but quality first.
 
Yeah, there would be no problem with an Aussie breeder breeding small dogs that worked and were what they wanted - like at all. There might be some frowning if they promoted themselves as breeding 'mini aussies', since well, size as the primary goal from breeding isn't something a lot of folk love for lots of reasons, but breeding smaller aussies in and of itself isn't an issue.

Since she's... well, an aussie breeder. I think maybe some of the people who are confused here are confused because they're not getting that you are getting an *AUSSIE*, not a MAS.
Well I guess I wasn't making that much of a distinction because she *does* mark some litters as "Mini" if she is aware that there will be smaller dogs... but no, she does not advertise herself as a "Miniature American Shepherd" breeder. Her number 1 thing is a versatile dog that can work, regardless of "breed standard" sizing. She DOES show some of her dogs and some of her lines are show lines... but quite frankly I don't see what the problem is even with that if she is keeping track of her pedigree, health testing, and homing responsibly.

My concern was never having a dog that fits a standard. My concern was finding a dog that fits ME. Which is a small, athletic, energetic, biddable dog with toy/food drive, that is able to get along with all my pets. Her dogs fit that bill.

I think maybe this is all just kind of confusing because a "Mini Aussie" is not a "real" breed, and there are breeders out there who do not want to have the breed be separated... but again, all that controversy has very little to do with whether or not the breeder is a good/bad one imo...
 
Honestly, there's good arguments on both sides for wanting the breeds to separate or not. It'll be interesting to see how all the chips fall. Right now there's essentially 4 breeds/varieties that overlap a LOT (Aussie, Mini American, Mini Aussie, Toy Aussies) with various registries. Mini American Shepherd was kind of an attempt to please everyone but there are a lot of people that don't want to go that route.
 
Honestly, there's good arguments on both sides for wanting the breeds to separate or not. It'll be interesting to see how all the chips fall. Right now there's essentially 4 breeds/varieties that overlap a LOT (Aussie, Mini American, Mini Aussie, Toy Aussies) with various registries. Mini American Shepherd was kind of an attempt to please everyone but there are a lot of people that don't want to go that route.
Yeah it's all very messy and confusing lol which is why I'm not so concerned on this end... because it doesn't really affect me or how healthy the dog will be. It's just not something that makes me go "well I'm not going to go with this breeder," you know?

My main thing is, the breeder must have a specific goal, must breed healthy dogs, must regularly test, and must home responsibly. She ticks all those boxes and I am happy with the dogs she offers. End of story.
 
It is also interesting to me how the view on how 'legitimate' the breed is has changed in the last few years. The people I know here with Toy Aussies are generally people who have been involved in dog showing and sports and breeding (other breeds) for a long, long time. Many of them even show their toy aussies in rare breed shows. (My friend's toy aussie is a champion) It's not a real cut and dried issues here.
 
Why? She tests eyes, hips, knees and checks for the MDR-1 gene, she has a specific breeding goal and titles all dogs in her breeding program. The only difference is that she chooses to register them with the ASCA because she breeds both larger and smaller Aussies. MAS have a very limited gene pool across the border here in Canada, she wouldn't be able to do nearly as much with MASCA registered dogs.
She's intentionally breeding Aussies smaller than the breed standard and still registering them with the ASCA? Does she advertise them as mini Aussies or just Aussies and say they tend to be on the small side??
 
She's intentionally breeding Aussies smaller than the breed standard and still registering them with the ASCA? Does she advertise them as mini Aussies or just Aussies and say they tend to be on the small side??
She breeds regular Aussies registered with the ASCA but has some smaller registered under NSDR in her program. She advertises some litters as tentatively being "mini" but does not guarantee size (nor is it her priority to breed smaller Aussies).
 
Discussion starter · #57 ·
So basically, she breeds regular Aussies but minis are still a possibility? That seems pretty okay to me.
 
So basically, she breeds regular Aussies but minis are still a possibility? That seems pretty okay to me.
Kind of, yeah. She does breed them on the smaller side (16"-20").

Regardless of whether it's to standard or not, though, I am just happy she isn't breeding for profit and she health tests and titles.

It's very hard to find Aussie breeders here who do not dock (she does for show potentials, but not for pets and sometimes makes exceptions for dogs who will be in her breeding program) and who prefer a less showy (with all the fluff and the chunkiness) look, who also are able to work and maintain the instincts.

I don't want a show bred dog. I want a working line but I'm not sure I could handle 100% working lines. She's a good compromise because she knows the pedigree of all her dogs and the litter I will be considered for is 1/4 show, 3/4 working.
 
Discussion starter · #59 ·
That's pretty cool that you found a breeder you like! I think my breeder will be Wigglebutt or Dynasty.
 
She's intentionally breeding Aussies smaller than the breed standard and still registering them with the ASCA? Does she advertise them as mini Aussies or just Aussies and say they tend to be on the small side??
this explains it far better than I could have LOL.

I don't want a show bred dog. I want a working line but I'm not sure I could handle 100% working lines. She's a good compromise because she knows the pedigree of all her dogs and the litter I will be considered for is 1/4 show, 3/4 working.
There should be no split in any breed, there should just be aussies, or MAS, or BC etc.

Lincoln is from pure foundation aussie working lines, and he isnt a crazy idiot, a true working dog shouldnt be go go go all the time with no off switch, then they wouldnt have the energy to REALLY work when they needed to. Also, the aussie (which was the foundation breed for the MAS so this reference is relevant) was originally a multi purpose farm dog, so they should be able to work all day in the field, and come home and guard the master's house at night.
 
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