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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ive got a serious concern. I have what I believe is a Great Dane Mix Merle. She almost looks like 100% but is obviously mixed. Based on her pointy ears and smaller great dane size. Its been impossible for me to find mate for her. Ive searched the globe in my territory willing to do just about anything for her. Fearing she might get sick if she doesnt mate. I recently found one. Supposebly purebreed. He definitely looks it. The problem is that he is also merle. He looks like her. Now I've well read the problems I risk of mixing to Merle's by the merle gene pool. But Im not sure if thats the case here since she is mixed. Any good help will be highly appreciated. I can of course post pictures of both dogs. She just passed heat before I met him but its likely to get back soon.
 

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She will NOT get sick if she doesn't get bred, unless she develops a uterine infection called pyometra. In fact, she'd probably be a lot better off is you have her spayed, which completely eliminates her risk of pyometra. If she is a mixed breed, there is no point in breeding her, anyway.

Concerning merles, you never ever breed a merle to another merle. You will wind up with deaf and blind puppies if they survive, and dead puppies if they don't.
 

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Dogs do not 'need' to be bred. There is no study that indicates any health benefit or longevity.

Do not breed merle to merle. Like LeoRose said, it WILL produce defective puppies. Not "might", will produce.

In general I'd not recommend breeding a mixed breed without health tests first, especially if you know your dog has some dane.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
She will NOT get sick if she doesn't get bred, unless she develops a uterine infection called pyometra. In fact, she'd probably be a lot better off is you have her spayed, which completely eliminates her risk of pyometra. If she is a mixed breed, there is no point in breeding her, anyway.

Concerning merles, you never ever breed a merle to another merle. You will wind up with deaf and blind puppies if they survive, and dead puppies if they don't.

First off. I have to congratulate the site for not banning me. This is the first site that let this message go through. For the two weeks Ive been trying to go to dog sites or great dane sites and have just posted this question out of concern. Only to be banned immediately and not let back in without a reason or response. I dont know why. Its very strange but would like to congratulate the site for that. Anothe reason some sites banned me was because of my screen name which I found odd as well. Another reason to congratulate.


Now to answer your posts.

LeoRose Okay this concern I have read in books, talked to vets, on the net, and even on stop tv shows. Ive heard they get cancer, sick, or something else. I always thought it was strange because we as humans are very close to dogs and dont have that issue, apperantly. But somehow made sense to me.

My enviornment doesnt believe in spayed. I actually think its a good idea but for starters the dog is too beautiful not to be breed. Secondly dogs am around are constantly looking to mate. Seems like a crime to take that away. And thirdly, I have this female cat that is constantly horny and I had her spayed because of the kitties too many thinking it would calm her down. She's still horny just not breeding.


Okay. I understand that. Nobody around here knows about that. But my concern is that shes not a purebreed. Wouldnt that help her? Since I think the double merle I think its called has to be two purebreed merles?

Dogs do not 'need' to be bred. There is no study that indicates any health benefit or longevity.

Do not breed merle to merle. Like LeoRose said, it WILL produce defective puppies. Not "might", will produce.

In general I'd not recommend breeding a mixed breed without health tests first, especially if you know your dog has some dane.

To candyx

I have read otherwise and its got my worried. By the end of last year my female American Cocker Spaniel passed away and I suspect it was because of that.

Wouldnt it help that my dog is mixed?

I dont think my dog has any health issues. If anything I think she is extremely healthy. When she does get sick I deparasite her and she gets back to normal.
 

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First, I dont recommend breeding.

I would say the risks of injury or issues by producing a litter of puppies is far greater than the risks if she was never bred.

Dogs dont need to be bred and wont get sick if they dont mate, especially if you spay the dog.
But breeding is risky too.

If you dont know her health history, then there is a risk of producing puppies that are sick.

In order to breed healthy dogs, breeders health test.
That includes hip and elbows x-rays and gradings, DNA tests, patella testing, heart testing, etc.

Second, they breed with a purpose, trying to produce a dog with certain traits.
So they know their dogs strengths and weaknesses, and try to find a good mate that compliments the female to produce good pups for the purpose.
Companionship is a fine purpose, but you have to make sure that you are choosing the right male...
One that also has health tests.
I dont recommend breeding her to any dog with 4 legs...

Merle to merle is something I recommend never doing.

Overall, if you are afraid of the risks of your dog not being bred, I recommend spaying her.
I really dont recommend breeding at all...
 

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I'm afraid being a mixed breed won't help her in this case. The problem isn't purebred vs. mixed, it's with the merle gene itself. Puppies that get merle from only one parent, like your girl, are fine and just have a pretty coat pattern. However, puppies that inherit merle from both parents almost always have developmental deformities, such as blindness (including too small or missing eyes) and deafness. Sometimes both. Most people in the dog community are against breeding merle to merle because we don't believe its ethical to knowingly produce puppies with deformities that can reduce their quality of life and make it harder for them to find a home willing to care for their special needs.

There are other genetic disorders that work in a similar way. Your girl is healthy now, but without checking her genetically and having a professional doing an in-depth examination of her eyes, hips, and elbows (the latter two require anesthesia), you have no way of knowing if she's carrying traits that will cause her to be sick or in pain in the future, OR if she has traits that, when combined with the wrong male, will produce sick and suffering puppies. All dogs can have these traits, mixed or pure. Purebred dogs are more predictable because we generally know what issues are common in a specific breed, but mixed breed dogs suffer from inherited disorders very often as well.

I'd also urge you to consider that breeding is dangerous for the female. It's hugely demanding on the body, and many, many things can go wrong that result in very expensive operations, or even a dead mom or puppies. Sometimes you wind up having to hand-raise the puppies because the mom can't produce enough milk, or she gets sick, or something else goes wrong that means some or all pups aren't eating and growing as they should. This even happens to experienced breeders who do everything by the book - it's a risk you have to be willing to take if you want to breed. Female dogs do NOT need to breed for their health, although I believe you that you live in an area of the world where that old wive's tale is still common belief. Many, many of us have had or known female dogs that were never bred, spayed young, and lived happy and healthy lives into their teens. Most female animals that were properly spayed will stop going into heat and looking for a mate - I don't know what the situation is with your cat but if she's still going into heat after the surgery that doesn't sound normal.

It's great that you have such a lovely dog, and of course it's natural to want to share that, but please consider all the potential issues and risks both to your girl and any future puppies you might produce.
 

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Well it's a bit hard to take you seriously with your username, and the fact that you claim to have no idea why it got you banned before.

Also spayed cats do not get 'horny'. I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from.

About the rest, everyone else said it better than I would.
 

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Your female should not be bred to another merle because that pairing will almost certainly produce blind and/or deaf puppies.

Your female does not NEED to be bred in order to reduce the risk of health issues. There are no scientific studies that indicate that female dogs need to have a litter.

About breeding your female in general, here's some food for thought:

What qualities about your female lead you to believe she should be bred? Just because she's a pretty dog? There are lots of pretty dogs out there that aren't of breeding quality.
Have you had her conformation analyzed by an experienced Dane owner or breeder?
Has she had the appropriate health testing done (for Danes the recommended tests are hips/elbows/eyes/heart/thyroid)?
Do you know the history of bloat in her lines? Do you know the history of cancer in her lines? Do you know the history of DCM in her lines?
Are you prepared to lose your dog to pregnancy complications?
Are you prepared to pay at least $1,200 for a c-section if she has birthing issues?
Are you prepared to pay at least $500 for puppy formula if she has so many puppies that she can't nurse them all (a common problem with Danes)?
Are you prepared to offer a health guarantee to her puppy's new owners? Will you take a puppy back if the new owner can't care for it?

These are all very BASIC components of breeding a dog. A litter of Dane puppies can get very expensive very quickly. Here's a breakdown of what it costs to responsibly breed a litter of Danes:

Hip and elbow testing for dam: 350.00
Thyroid test for dam: 70.00
ECG (heart test) for dam: 70.00
Progesterone testing: 300.00
Pregnancy vitamins: 40.00
Stud fee: 1,500.00 (or more)
Artificial Insemination fee: 600.00
Ultrasound: 120.00
C-section (if needed): 1,400.00
Importing semen from overseas: 3,500.00 (approx.)
Whelping box: 150.00
Bedding: 180.00
Heat mat/light: 90.00
Whelping kit: 200.00 (approx.)
Worming puppies: 150.00
Vaccination: 45.00 ea.
Micro chipping: 25.00 ea.
Dry food for dam and puppies for 8 weeks: 500.00
Dew claw removal: 40.00 ea.
Other potential costs:
If bitch gets mastitis: 200.00
Puppy formula if bitch can't feed puppies: 400.00

With those numbers in mind:

A litter of 8 puppies using non-imported semen with zero complications would cost $5,170.00 to breed.
A litter of 12 puppies using non-imported semen with zero complications would cost $5,670.00.
A litter of 8 puppies using imported semen without complications would cost $7,170.00.
A litter of 12 puppies using imported semen with complications (c-section, mastitis) would cost $9.470.00.
 

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So you were banned on at least one other site because of your user name, yet you chose to use it again here? You like living on the edge, don't you?
 

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She just passed heat before I met him but its likely to get back soon.
NOT likely, in fact virtually impossible. It will be quite a while before she comes into heat again. But that's probably a good thing. Gives you plenty of time to seriously reconsider your intentions.
 

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NOT likely, in fact virtually impossible. It will be quite a while before she comes into heat again. But that's probably a good thing. Gives you plenty of time to seriously reconsider your intentions.
Yes, regular Dane heats are twice a year.
 

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Yep. And deparisiting as a cure for whatever it is that ails your dog. Wishful, and dangerous thinking right there.

Might as well sprinkle red brick dust around the threshold.
 

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Alisa♥;5189178 said:
This feels like trolling, but there is effort in OP's posts so I'm confused...
You're relatively new here and probably haven't had time in the past six months to read the rules and stickies regarding troll-calling or other insults. But the ONLY appropriate response to a suspicion of trolling is to report the post and let the moderators deal with it.

So, yes, you're confused.

http://www.dogforums.com/announcements/98708-playing-troll-card.html
 

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----for starters the dog is too beautiful not to be breed.-----

-----I have read otherwise and its got my worried. By the end of last year my female American Cocker Spaniel passed away and I suspect it was because of that.-----
To address the two things I've pulled out:

First, just being pretty isn't reason enough to breed a dog. This dog

2017-6-9 Dogs & Yard DSC_0559 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

is, hands down, the prettiest dog I have ever owned. She's also a living, breathing example of horrible conformation, starting at her plain, if feminine, head, down through her straight front assembly, over angulated rear assembly, and on to the tip of her gay tail.

This dog

2016-8-12 Leo & Ilka DSC_0207 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

was also a beautiful dog, and she was my once in a lifetime, love of my life dog. She also was snarky and reactive to the point that she wasn't safe around dogs or people outside of my immediate family.

As much as love these dogs. neither one of them needed to be bred, and it would have been highly irresponsible of me to breed them.


For the second part, about the only way a bitch could die from not being bred is if she developed pyometra (a uterine infection) and didn't receive medical attention. For that matter, bitches who do get bred can also develop pyometra, and if left untreated, will die from the infection.
 

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I know it has already been said but merle is a color gene and has nothing to do with any breed of dog, pure or crossed. Please do not breed her to anything that even looks to have merle coloring. I have two merle colored dogs and love the coloring, one has blue eyes the other doesn't. I would be suspicious of any dog with blue eyes unless you knew for sure what breed they were as some merles are not easily recognized as merles as they can have just a small patch of merle on them.
 

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You're relatively new here and probably haven't had time in the past six months to read the rules and stickies regarding troll-calling or other insults. But the ONLY appropriate response to a suspicion of trolling is to report the post and let the moderators deal with it.

So, yes, you're confused.

http://www.dogforums.com/announcements/98708-playing-troll-card.html
Definitely read the rules, definitely didn't infer that the "T" word was banned. Didn't read the sticky, though, until now.

Obviously not posting is my safest bet. And no, I didn't really see anything "reportable."
 

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Alisa♥;5189642 said:
Definitely read the rules, definitely didn't infer that the "T" word was banned. Didn't read the sticky, though, until now.

Obviously not posting is my safest bet. And no, I didn't really see anything "reportable."
Troll calling is name calling and as such is expressly forbidden in the rules, and is punishable by an immediate temp ban. Ron was being generous by warning you first, so I'd lay off the snarky comments if I were you.

FYI, if you're suspicious enough to call someone a troll, you're suspicious enough to report them as such.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
Bang Bang!

Starting my long awaited reply with a bang!

OKay, I couldnt help myself. I am posting the pictures of both dogs, though going by the excellent response its probably of no importance but just verify that they ARE merle and am not just delusional. lol.


Now going to give her bio. Which dawn on me is important.

I first met this dog as her owner strole her by my block. Walking her on her daily walks. I was completely amazed as I have always loved Great Danes and have seen very few in my life. I invited the owner and the dog to my house to which he graciously accepted. I showed her to my mom and she didnt even want to see her fearing I wanted her. I was just amazed how beautiful she was. Took several pictures and said our goodbyes. One month later the owner showed up to my house to my surprised desperate to get rid of the dog. To my surprise I didnt know what to do. I, without hestiation offered to buy it. He told me they didnt want the dog in the house because his grandfather the actual owner was extremely fearful of the ticks. Fearing it would get him sick, caused by cancer or something. Actually not that far off. Ive heard something similar by a sweden through lyme disese, I think. I quickly got all the ticks off the dog. Having watched a lot of Cesar Milian the dog whisper I was confident I could take on such a task. She was was an adult and had bred I think about 5 times. The first thing I did was get rid of all her ticks. One thing I noticed that got my alarm way up. Was how aggressive she was. She was super aggressive, protective, and always on guard. I was fearful she would attack me though I quickly got that she wouldnt since she never gave such indications. The fear came from her aggressive energy. She was also fearless on taking on other dogs. Very aggressive for anything. Not by barking but by her behavior unafraid to take charge at any task. One time I actually felt that shouldnt do anything to me and took up the challenge to prove it and she didnt. Thats when I figured she wasnt a danger to me. It took about 2 months of me adjusting her behavior for her to become social. In about 6 months she become total social and fully confident. All her aggressive behavior is gone and she is very friendly with anyone now. From the start having known and read about the tough challenges of raising puppies I was against her breeding. Till I read about all the issues it comes with it if I dont spyed her which is something I also didnt want to do. Now since Ive owned her many random people have stopped me in the streets interested in a puppy and this dog is very expensive compared to most. Though money has never been my concern going as far as making sure the owner was very responsible and had really good conditions above anything else. But combined with all of these things I had to look for her to breed. Problem 2 has been finding her a dog. It has been impossible going many distances. Mostly female dogs and the few male dogs that have found have had issues. Whether the owner being problematic and liars to dogs seeming health issues. Finally found a good one which was this one but my first impression was I shouldnt since I had already read the double merle. Posting this on this site has helped me a lot already.





Cielbie

Thanks for the excellent advice.

When you said the risks of litter puppies it made me consider not having her breed since obviously her health is above all else.

I dont know her health history though she appears very healthy and though I knew she has breed I now understand is risker than originally thought.

Another red alert which you mentioned is that the owner contacted me because his dog was sad so his thinking was that if he had a dog it'll bring his mood back to normal. But my concern was his health. As you said. I dont know if the dog has health issues no matter what he appears or the dog owner says. I'd have to ask him for vet reports.



Daysleepers

Thats what I had read that the puppies developed deformities such as blindness, deafness among other things.

I just wasnt sure if it wouldnt have been an issue if she had mixed. Now I know.


and of course I agree with why have puppies be brought up in such a world and its rare to impossible of course to have an owner who'd take care of such a problem or want to.

Thanks for explaining mixed dogs also suffer from inherited disorders as well because I have heard strange comments about only purebreeds suffer inherited disorders while mixed breeds were less suspecitible towards it based on no inner breeding.

Your post was very enlightening. I dont know why I would expect an expert dog breeder going by the book NOT to have breeding issues but that makes sense that it does so of course as you state its not an easy job at all and of course quite expensive.

I'd like to know that old wives tale. lol. I dont know it. But got a hint.

Thanks for raising the cat situation. Because you mentioned that. I am now very concern that she was not spyed right. They've told me that she goes out at night looking for cats. Though the spyed was supposebly down by good experts I am considering taking her to vet to have her check because she might not have been spyed right and could have health issues because of it. She was spyed about 4 months ago. When I was first told that she was still horny my first reaction was that. That something was wrong.



Francl27

This is where we differ. I am sure most dont even know what my username mean and can see why there thrown off by it. But ever heard not to judge a book by its cover? Its how I live my life. Many here have taken me seriously without judging my user name which is something I appreciate.

I actually dont have an idea why I was banned. I thought about NOT bringing up this subject but I dont care. I'll leave myself open to take shots. I said it because I was impressed and am still impressed by this site on how it has treated me compared to other ones. Ones that where higher on the google search but were obviously of lesser quality.

I dont know why I got banned. I only got one explaination from one of the sites that it was my user name was not acceptable. I then sent them a rough email to which I didnt get a response. I reregistered with a different user name and once i posted the above message I was banned again.

The other sites didnt give me a message and by that point I didnt even bother contacting them or cared. I figured I'd try it other more open better sites. Eventually leading me here. Where I'm happy and everything is going to plan with I'm sure much better responses than I would've received there.

I could list the sites that gave me issues if anybody would like.

I get the idea of the cat getting horny because I'm told she still is looking for cats at night.


hiraeth


I think its the pyometra that leorose pointed out that I'm concern she gets from not breeding.

OKay to answer your should bred question.

Shes a pretty dog of course.
She is a big dog which is not common around here.
A lot of people are interested having her puppies.
She is a smart dog.
She is a very social dog.
She is a very good guard dog.
She is well behaved.
She is in good health.
She has a good attitude.
She isnt gun happy when attacking.
She is a good hunter.
Merle is not common.
Though mixed her mixed feature are a good mix. Great Danes arent as tough guard dog as she is. She doesnt seem to have the typical big dog health issues. She has beautiful funny ears. Though she is a big dog she is still smaller(less expensive) compared to great danes but still a good enough size for its owner.

I have not have her analyzed by an experience Dane Owner which doesnt exist here.

SOme breeders I have seen though am sure not expert say shes a good dog.

THough no medical exams of any kind. All local vets have said she is in good health but by going by this board that pretty much means nothing. Since you guys happen to have high standards to which I agree with.

I dont know any of her lines history, pedigree, or anything really. I dont even know her parents.

I know Great Danes suffer from bloat problems. Because of that I try to give her both water and food at her head level.

Am not prepared to lose my dog of course. WOuld rather her not breed then lose her obviously.

Am prepared to pay c-section but after reading all these posts I dont think the risks are worth it.

Am prepared to pay for puppy formula.

No health Guarantee, since am not a vet, a true dog breeder, or salesman. Wouldnt know the true conditions the owner provides or handles the pet.

Will take the puppy back. No problem.



I had thought about and been very aware of the expense, time, and energy of puppies but not to the extend you point you in your fee list. That list opened my eyes a lot, which am thankful. ONe of the best posts. Which reminded why I dont have any kids yet and the high demands of it. Which just means I have to elevate myself more. Makes me wonder how so many people have kids many having multipe and dont have a dime to their name. I rather not bring kids to such misery.


I really liked the imported, non-imported section. It was very funny but informative. I would consier imported semen but still the section was very informative.



RonE


Though I do like living on the edge and as much as I would like to take credit here that doesnt really apply here. I just pointed that out because I thought it was stupid they banned me for that while this site accepted me and the reason I thought it was stupid was because that user name is my actual personal ID. Ive used that user name for over a decade on many many sites and never ever have had a problem with it. Though I can see its impulse nature its true meaning is not what it seems. Its actually quite harmless. In my majority Ive never actually seen people give a shock reaction. Just a few strange obscure ones and when they do I noticed how closeminded and perverse they are. Most people I come into contact with have an open and understanding mind.



PetPeeve

Ive heard that many times when dogs just pass heat it comes back in a matter weeks momentarily. I think I've actually seen it happen.

Of course. Time is on my side and am considering not to based on all of these helpful advises bound to be even more.

Ive taken the dog to the vet when she has displayed certain sick symptoms and thats what they have suggested and it has worked. Typically in a matter of two days shes back to up and running and actually hasnt been sick for awhile.



Alisa

Concerning Alisa

Based on my messages and reactions from other sites I can see why her and others might think that. Though obviously offended by such comments and I thank RonE for his support. There is no need for such problems to be arisen by my crazy thread. Though I've been banned have had problems in the past am against such actions against other users. So if you can just pass this issue and continue to task at hand without the necessity to take further action. I partly blame myself for not responding quicker as I have been focusing on giving such a response as this and have been taking care of buisness elsewhere as well.


And of course, Am not a troll but a great admirer of this communty and yes there sure is EFFORT!



LeoRose

Yea The first dog is a pretty dog and to me appears worth breeding.


The Second one is beautiful as well. Did training or dog expert not help in her behavior?

People in general think I'm crazy but am confident enough to think I can train any dog and have been successful though obviously not a certified expert.


Yea I think Pyometra is what I was referring to. Having researched that issue after you posted it appears like the right symtomes. My cocker appeared to have had that. The problem was that I was heavily busy in that season with work and my family went to the vet and advised anti-biotics which I wasnt in favor of. She passed in the mourning. I blame myself because I wasnt around, but everything happened very fast. In about 4 days.


kyllobernese

Though it has been said doesnt mean you cant weighin. I actually appreciate it.

lol. A small patch. Their entire fur is merle. The both of them. I am posting the pics.
 

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