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Discussion Starter #1
I have a 5 month old dobi rotti mix. Ive been doing pack leader training with her she walks on the leash very well responds to my commands very well.

And i may just not understand how the dog pack leader works this is my first dog. But i assumed when it came to protection the dog was ment to rely on me for that.

Last night a fox or a racoon got into my yard and she went nuts. We were on my deck which i have gated from the rest of the yard. When i brought her in she stayed healed off leash and would leave my side as if gaurding me.

Have i failed as a pack leader am i doing the training wrong or is this natural?
 

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What's typically synonymous with "pack theory" is outdated and misplaced. Consider the behavior and ask yourself this question...Have I trained my dog for this kind of distraction? If the answer is no, then you haven't trained your dog. If the answer is yes, then you haven't trained your dog...enough.

This kind of behavior is natural for most dogs instinctual. Most people prefer to manage their dogs, instead of doing the training because it can be a lot of work, and not always predictable.
 

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Don't worry about being your dog's "pack leader." He knows you're not a wolf and all that pack theory stuff came from misunderstanding dog social relationships in the first place. As Curb said, it's a training issue (and a common one at that), not a leadership issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
You are right i have not trained her for these distractions. An to be honest i dont know how. She was still fully responsive to all my commands. I didnt encourage nor discourage this behavior behavior because I would like my dog to alert me of any "threat" weather its someone the yard or an animal i live close to alot of woods an would prefer my yard to be vermin free lol.

But i dont want to lose control over my dog. I dont want the dog to be one of those dogs where people dont want to come to my house because she is always being a pain in the butt. An the pack leader training is how im training her. An so far it has proven to be very very affective. Shes still very young an already walks on a leash great knows to heel sit lay down go to her crate go to her bed and is already house trained.

What should i do tho if anything. She is a very friendly dog and i am socializing her like crazy. Shes a cute pup so in terms of people I usually end up getting stopped like 10 times just walking her in the park an as for dogs i take her to anyones house i know that has dogs and she plays with them also not sure if any of this has anything to do with this situation but as i said this is my first dog. I just want to make sure im doing it right.
 

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It could have been a fear reaction. That would explain why she wouldn't leave your side when you came in the house - she was seeking you out for comfort after she was scared/startled.
 

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well i have to say , its part of a training issue, yes, but you should deffinitly be the leader of your "pack". when i got my first dog i made the huge mistake of
letting her be the boss and leader and i didnt even realize i was doing it! but over the last couple of years i have been extensivly researching doggy pshychology and body language, and give or take , its not what your dog acts like in your house that really counts,but in your dogs mind, your house is a kennel,yes, a nice kennel , but its still not the real world, that would be the outside. this is part of why its really importent to be able to take your dog on a walk everyday, or at least 5 days a week.
how your dog acts on a walk and whose in charege on the walk is going to affect about 95% of your dogs behaviour in the other asspects of its life.
when you walk your dog you should be walking tall and confident, your dog should not be walking ahead of you, but rather beside or slightly behind you.
in the wild the alpha dog would walk at the front so if you want to be leader you make the desions and you decide where to go, therefore you should walk first right?
what i really recommend is a high collar,these work so much better then the normal collars that just go around the base of your dogs necck,
they go about at your dogs chin level and make it easier to cotroll your dogs head. and where the nose of the dog goes , the body usually follows.
if your dog is walking beside you, great! but that still doesnt mean your in charge. your dog should get a sharp tug on the leash(which is why i recommend the high collars, they take much less force) whenever they look at another passing dog or person, really its if they just give them a casual glance, but if they are looking, the other person or dog is distracting them, and their not paying attentionn to you and your expecting them to do.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Yes i do pack walks every day With her i have been for id say a bit over a month now i have the collar.I usually do a minimum of 45 minute walks a day and maybe 3 days a week i take her for long walks maybe 2 hours or so right now the temp is perfect so i dont need to worry about her over heating so im trying to take advantage of that. She walks beside me sometimes her head is in front of my knee but i wont let her stray any further ahead then that. And she looks up at me from time to time if i start to change direction. She never pulls. Distractions while walking is what i am currently working on. I already had to get between her and another dog that tryed to attack her which i read shows that dog your leading also how true that is i dont know.

Does it sound like im pack walking her wrong ? And thank you guys for all your advice Everytime i have posted something on these forums i have gotten good advice.
 

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I think you both need to read this. Pack theory has been disproven and is no longer a useful way of understanding or training dogs. I recommend reading up on operant conditioning instead.

In case you don't feel like clicking on the link:
Wikipedia "Pack (Canine)" said:
Gray wolves (Canis lupus) usually live in packs which consist of the adult parents and their offspring of perhaps the last 2 or 3 years.
L. David Mech said:
"Calling a wolf an alpha is usually no more appropriate than referring to a human parent or a doe deer as an alpha. Any parent is dominant to its young offspring, so "alpha" adds no information. Why not refer to an alpha female as the female parent, the breeding female, the matriarch, or simply the mother? Such a designation emphasizes not the animal's dominant status, which is trivial information, but its role as pack progenitor, which is critical information. The one use we may still want to reserve for "alpha" is in the relatively few large wolf packs comprised of multiple litters. ... In such cases the older breeders are probably dominant to the younger breeders and perhaps can more appropriately be called the alphas. ... The point here is not so much the terminology but what the terminology falsely implies: a rigid, force-based dominance hierarchy."[9]
And please don't start using the methods mkj is preaching. Yanking away at your dog's leash and dragging him around by his head will not help desensitize him to distractions and will instead damage your relationship and cause more problems. You are lucky to have a dog that doesn't pull. It makes absolutely no difference whether the dog walks slightly ahead or behind you. Seriously none. If your dog is reactive towards other dogs on leash you need to desensitize him by treating him when you see another dog (before he reacts) and slowly build up his tolerance by allowing him closer to the thing that's causing the reaction over time. If he reacts, you know you went over his threshold, so you just have to start from farther away again.

 

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sometimes i wish training information was NOT available on the internet :( drop the pack leader hooey. its not going to help you. dont jerk your dog around when it looks at something. and you should NOT be giving leash corrections with a "high collar" on... ive never heard it called that by the way, its always a head collar. thats not what they are designed for.
 

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I am sure they are talking about the "Illusian"collar designed by the CM camp to ride up high on the neck right behind the jaw line...
Yes, that's what they're talking about. It hits right on the most sensitive part of the dog's neck.

Look, you know what's way more relaxing, fun and easier than spending every waking moment of the day at war with your dog? Becoming a team, a team of you and your dog. You both win, every day, it's great. No more worrying if your dog's nose is 1" past your knee, no more punishing your dog for looking at something, no more treating every second like a battle that must be won. We don't live that way, we don't treat our dogs like that, yet we have well behaved, well trained dogs.

Something to think about.
 

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huh just googled it. ive never seen one of those.... looks..... eh... strange
 

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Look, you know what's way more relaxing, fun and easier than spending every waking moment of the day at war with your dog? Becoming a team, a team of you and your dog. You both win, every day, it's great. No more worrying if your dog's nose is 1" past your knee, no more punishing your dog for looking at something, no more treating every second like a battle that must be won. We don't live that way, we don't treat our dogs like that, yet we have well behaved, well trained dogs.
this!

my dane lexi has completed so may classes. basic obedience, advanced obedience (a couple times, for fun), tricks, etc. and is a canine good citizen. ive never had to give her any physical corrections or anything. we have so much fun training and i keep taking classes (even the same classes over and over) just because SHE and i BOTH have a blast when we work on training. doesnt this sound better than constantly struggling and having to be first in everything? i walk her (125lbs) with the leash dangling and my arms full of bags of dog food, guinea pig food, toys, etc. walking though the petstore with other animals and smells all over the place. i dont worry if shes ahead or behind me. if she has her nose down and starts sniffing for something interesting, so be it. if i need her attention back at me i just say softly "lexi, pay attention" and its right back.
i manage a dog daycare and im a trainer. i control groups of 30+ dogs every day, and if i walked around thinking i had to be the alpha, i would have a group of chaos. one thing to remember when training dogs and its my #1 rule when i hire someone "aggression begets aggression". if you want to walk around thinking youre the boss and correcting every little thing they do, be my guest, but they will only push back. pick and choose your battles wisely.
 

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But i dont want to lose control over my dog. I dont want the dog to be one of those dogs where people dont want to come to my house because she is always being a pain in the butt. An the pack leader training is how im training her. An so far it has proven to be very very affective. Shes still very young an already walks on a leash great knows to heel sit lay down go to her crate go to her bed and is already house trained.
"Pack leader" training is one of those things with just enough truth to it to be sometimes effective. But most of it is sillly superstition. If you are consistent in training and clear in your rules and boundaries, you're not going to "Lose control". But it's about training, not "pack status" and there are more effective and instructive ways to get to the point very quickly.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
My puppy pulled when i first got it now she doesnt . I got her house broken this way an dont really have any problems with the dog to be honest. More of a concern. As i said this is my first dog and i want to do it right. And its never a battle with her actually the opposite she so responsive for the most part it surprises me. And i love training my dog and to be honest im not exactly stick to the true pack lead mentality. Only time she gets her chain popped is when she is refusing to move and that is after a series of commands ignored an this is always distraction related. She follows the rules an im happy with that when she breaks or bends them she gets corrected, I do not hit or scream at my dog. An to be honest i like the idea of us being a team she is with me 24/7. The reason i posted this is because i dont know any better so i refer to you guys when im confused or lost with something my dog is doing. And thank you again for the help.

So i should focus less on pack leader and more on communication and training and conditioning i assume right ?
 

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I guess I'm confused as to what "pack leader/alpha dog training" is other than a lot of bullying and alpha rolling and weird superstitions/rituals (like walking through doors first or eating first), because that's all I've ever seen called that. But yes, you should concentrate on training and communication and conditioning.
 

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Since you're a new dog owner, you may want to download both of these free books and look through them. They will help you with training and communication. The world famous Vet, Dr. Ian Dunbar, who wrote them has a Ph.D. and has been leading much of the research for ~40 years. Cesar Millan included Dunbar in his most recent book.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads
 

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Indeed, train her for these situations... and distractions. I guess conditioning a dog is very important to the every day reaction to things. I walk with Luna in busy places but also walk past cats and other animals that I see and wait until she is settled down before I continue. I also tend to approach whatever she is making a fuss about with her (she is usually off leash, unless I am around a busy street with cars) and wait until she stops obsessing and relaxes. Many people are against the whole pack leader thing - I usually only apply what seems best for me and my dog to create an understanding, because as far as dogs go I want to implement the most natural dog behaviors possible - which indeed, do not mean that you need to target the most sensitive part of your dog's neck or strangle them. Stay open minded and compromise a manner in which both you and the dog are comfortable and most natural :)
 
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