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Yep. What Canxy said.

The important thing for me with drive is basically desire with a focus. A lot of people will call a really frantic, wild, off the wall dog a high drive dog - but if all that energy isn't being directed toward *getting something* they really want it isn't drive. It's just a hyperactive dog. Conversely, a lot of dogs who are very, very high drive are not particularly frantic or wild - focused and intense and determined, but not displaying signs of a lot of wasted energy.

As for the rest:

It all breaks down and frankly anything the dog wants, that is within your ability to control, is drive that will work for you, can be used to transfer value (and build 'drive' for) other things.

My smallest/most experienced agility dog? Loooow drive for anything but food, initially. Totally crazy about agility now. What's she working for now? Agility. I had an argument once that all dogs are ultimately working for something else, not agility itself. I was wrong. Value has transferred there, so firmly, that even for her - who had little chase or play drive - that I've forgotten treats, or forgotten to reward and she's still vibrating with desire to get back out there. That reward history is built on food, because that's the drive she had. She also now has a lot of play drive - also built on food drive - to the degree that I can use toys as primary rewards. (Still no prey drive. Cuddles up to rabbits, gets chased by deer and chickens, politely sniffs and ignores rodents - it's ridiculous)

And yes, prey-drive can and should be broken down further. My BC and BC X love to chase things. They don't kill, even if they catch - don't even try to; there's no biting or teeth. They even back off, mostly, so it will run again and then resume the chase. That's the drive for them - not the catching or killing. They're also totally toy nuts (unsurprisingly). My now deceased rat terrier? Chased, yeah, but he did it so he could kill the thing. Could not have cared less about most toys but enjoyed disemboweling squeaky things.

And 'pack drive' for me is just either biddability or handler focus. It is a drive, in as much as it's a fundamental desire with a focus, but for me it's kind of just a personality trait and thing that is. You can build it or lessen it just like all the rest, but for me it's very much a background thing that is. It's not useful as a reward, it's not a distraction. It does make training easier, but mostly - well, like I said, it just is.
 

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There is a really cool video of a ball-obsessed border collie that learns to take food rewards through association with the ball. Previously, I think you can imagine that the dog wouldn't even look at food when a ball is present (and they show the dog refusing hot dogs). I don't think that dog will ever love food as much as it loves the ball. But it looks like they trained it to a degree where the food is then useful in training..
Yep. This is what I meant with Kylie only backwards.

She had no toy drive beyond being a young puppy - didn't care at all. I taught her a retrieve with a food filled bottle. Fed her treats from it, then added distance. Then added other toys. At this point I can reward with toys. The toy drive is 200% based on food drive. It's neat stuff.
 

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Oh and since I'm spamming:

"What drive is an agility dog in" depends enormously on the dog and the training and the point in the training. It also depends enormously on if you make me buy some half-baked definition of drive or just go with 'thing a dog desires enough to throw itself off a cliff for'.

Ultimately the really simple explanation is 'play' and if you insist on calling pack drive a thing, some of that. They're usually working for food or toys - at high energy and excitement and desire for those things. But reward quickly transfers value to the activity itself.

So the dog is running for... the joy of movement and running the course. They have a conditioned emotional response to it -and that conditioned emotional response is "HECK YEAH LET ME AT IT LET's GO!" Well, some (a lot of) dogs. There are dogs who are doing basically 'obedience agility' working for the treat at the end or because their handler said so - more common in green dogs and green handlers. Mostly and ideally? The drive (desire) is for the activity itself.
 

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Threshold for me is about arousal, not drive/desire. Threshold = Point at which the dog loses it's ability to think/be responsive. That can be kicked off by drive/desire for something, but can also not. Lots and lots of dogs are plenty thoughtful/responsive when 'in drive', even extremely high drive. Which is useful given how often the thing they have drive for is used in training.
 

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@capnjack your thoughts on threshold are interesting.....I never really thought of it as being the point where they cant think clearly.....I guess I should have though after reading so much about severely reactive dogs.
More than one type of threshold perhaps?
That same bullmastiff wasnt an aggressive dog per say, but there were limits to what she'd take of coarse.....we have alot of loose dogs in the area, and we have pet miniature goats and chickens, so one of our dogs jobs are to drive off other animals. Point being please dont take what I'm about to say as bragging or some such.....that bmastiff would actively challenge another dog, but she wouldnt just outright attack right off the bat. But if the other dog didnt respect what she was trying to get across she'd do her job and fight. When she finally decided to fight, we learned early on she would fight to kill. She was a no nonsense dog, and would go for the belly. Why I bring this up, is that I thought of her as being pushed over her threshold when she finally did fight....but she wasnt out of her head when she did. She was what I thought as being clear headed. I could grab her collar to pull her off, she wasnt a thrashing mess, she wasnt so worked up that she'd turn around and redirect onto me. She was calm about it in a way. Had one time the offending dog didnt leave the property when I pulled her off. I walked towards the other dog to finish running it off, she just calmly trotted past me, not running but trotting, cornered the dog against a section of fencing and very calmy and deliberately layed into the dog again. She knew she was big and powerful and knew how to throw her weight around. I guess what I'm asking is if being over threshold means unable to think clearly, then when she went into fight mode, was there no crossing of a threshold involved at that point?
I wouldn't call that being over threshold in the sense that I consider it over threshold. I wouldn't even necessarily consider it drive. I would consider it a dog doing it's job, who knew what the job was and was going to do it. In truth I have a GSD Pyr mix and he's very like this. Clear headed, even keeled, but protective. He'll give warnings, he'll escalate deliberately, but it's not that he has a desire to fight anything or anyone. He just... is doing his job. The desire is to make them go away and stop being a threat. If aggression were required for that - like active engagement - he'd do so, but I don't think he gets an... emotional pay off from escalation. It's just the necessary action to get the problem gone.
 
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