Lagotto breeders are insane people!

I am so sorry that you are going through this. It must be very frustrating for you. We all need to vent sometimes and I've certainly posted my own share of doozies that I later wished I had kept in a locked journal until I calmed down.

Lagottos certainly do seem like exceptional dogs. I was just enjoying the post of a new baby Lagotto yesterday and was informed that things are much easier on "the other side of the pond" with Lagotto breeders. I have also told you my own story about why I can't have my first choice of breed (APBT) and how much I love my imperfect little mutts.

Not that it's any of my business or anything, but a sweet standard poodle might make the wait easier for you, give the Lagotto breeders proof of what a great home you will give a pup, and add a lot to your Lagotto's life. You have mentioned in other posts that you have the resources to care for two dogs. I have also mentioned in my previous posts that I know more about human nature than I do about dogs, so just ignore me if I accidentally give ridiculously bad advice.

I am so sorry that you are having such a hard time. I hope things get better for you soon.

You've got a few things working against you here. As you've pointed out, it's a rare breed. That means everyone talks, and I mean everyone. Two puppies from my breeder went to a breeder in the US, because they were friendly after meeting at a grooming seminar in a third country. That doesn't mean everyone in the breed gets along or supports each other's breeding decisions, but it's politic not to burn bridges where you can, be polite even if you decide they're not a good fit for you, avoid being overly confrontational, and, uh, maybe not post rants on easily searchable public forums.

The other thing you get with a rare breed is the supply and demand thing. My breeder had more families interested than she had puppies. My wife and I were in the group of "maybe" homes because she works and I'm in school, meaning there isn't anybody home all day. Now this wasn't a dealbreaker for our breeder, but all the other 'maybe' families had at least one person home full-time, so it counted against us. Same with living in an apartment with only a small outdoor garden space. We literally only made the final cut because she couldn't chose and went with the families who had contacted her first. When a breeder has a lot of interested buyers to chose between, they can afford to be choosy, and yeah, sometimes that means stuff like "this interested buyer did nothing outwardly wrong but I didn't feel we clicked" happens. It helps if you go in with the understanding that you might be on a waiting list for a while - that's kind of the norm in rare breeds, and even very high quality breeders in more common breeds.

And... I have to ask, have you considered whether you seem like an attractive buyer? Gone to dog shows or sports events where Lagotto are to talk to owners, handlers, and breeders there so you can get first-hand experience with the breed? Requested meet-ups with local owners to get to know their dogs? Do you have experience managing curly coated dogs? Is your lifestyle a good match for the breed? At eight weeks old (okay, going on nine now), our puppy is way more go-go-go than Sam was when we brought him home at twelve weeks. Constantly getting into things, trying to climb into places he shouldn't be, attempting to leap from the couch to the coffee table... I'm delighted, because we wanted a partner to try out dog sports, nosework, and potentially SAR with, but it's a lot of work keeping up with him and I fully expect him to be a more demanding adult than our relatively laid-back poodle. Of course they can do great as a companion in an active pet home as well, but if you don't currently do many dog-friendly activities and have no concrete plans to start, again, you're not going to look like as good a home as someone who, say, hikes or bikes regularly, or who does dog-specific activities.

And, I hate to say it, but if you go into these kinds of transactions with an attitude - towards breeders, towards women, whatever - people can tell. It can turn them off. Most good breeders want to be able to have a continuing relationship with their buyers, to at least hear updates and be available to take the dogs back if anything ever happens. If they peg you as difficult to get along with, that's that. And that's entirely within their rights. Remember, these aren't salespeople or customer service workers. For the most part, a good breeder isn't trying to convince you to buy their dogs. You're trying to convince them that you're an appropriate home.

laurelsmom said:

Exactly. It isn't just Lagotto breeders, its the entire human race that seems insane when we try to do the right thing in a world where shelters are euthanizing dogs every day because nobody wants them while puppy mills are churning out poorly bred dogs as if they were iPads or cheap potato chips.

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I agree. It's any halfway decent breeder's nightmare to have one of their dogs wind up in a shelter - or worse, a mass breeding facility - and since none of us are psychic, sometimes perfectly good homes get passed over due to really minor and superficial things. But it's hard to be trusting when almost every long-time breeder has a horror story of sending a puppy to what seems like a great home, only to have to pull them out of a shelter or get them back in horrible condition or have them just... disappear with no explanation. Especially since most breeders are trying to vet puppy buyers around managing and showing/titling their adults and their day job, since producing high-quality puppies in an ethical and humane fashion almost never pays the bills. In a perfect world, breeders in general would be really great about communicating these things, but like I said... they're not really businesspeople in the traditional sense (I'll be honest, some are downright terrible at communicating). It doesn't work like most other transactional relationships do.

I hope explaining this helps Petsrkids and anyone else in the puppy-buying process understand where the other side is coming from, why breeders can be protective and why it's important to keep a positive approach in your interactions and not set unrealistic expectations.

I agree. It's any halfway decent breeder's nightmare to have one of their dogs wind up in a shelter - or worse, a mass breeding facility - and since none of us are psychic, sometimes perfectly good homes get passed over due to really minor and superficial things. But it's hard to be trusting when almost every long-time breeder has a horror story of sending a puppy to what seems like a great home, only to have to pull them out of a shelter or get them back in horrible condition or have them just... disappear with no explanation.

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This actually happened to the breeder of our Shelties when I was a kid. She was an amazing, responsible breeder who did everything in her power to make sure her dogs wound up in loving, responsible homes, but ... Our male Sheltie was a year old when this happened, we always boarded him with his breeder, because he got stressed when we left him behind and she always went above and beyond to make him happy and comfortable while we were away. Anyway, while we were dropping him off one day, she had a new litter of pups, full siblings to our boy, and I feel in love with the smallest tricolour female, named Panda. Begged my parents for her, they said no, one dog was enough, and I cried all the way home, lol. I don't remember this, but my mom swears I prayed for that dog for a full year, right up until our next summer vacation, when we were dropping our dog off again. While we were there, I saw this scrawny little tricolour sheltie slinking around, and asked whose dog she was. Breeder said "remember Panda?" Turns out, our breeder sold her shortly after we had seen her to what she THOUGHT was an amazing family, only to find out a year later that it was actually a puppy mill. They starved her, beat her, bred her when she was only 6 months old, it was awful. My breeder loved her dogs like they were her children, and as this was over 20 years ago and puppy mill laws really didn't even exist yet, my breeder bought her back from those awful people. She never told us how much, only that it was a lot of money, but she didn't care, anything to get her out of there. She then gave her to me for nothing, because she knew how much I'd loved her, and she couldn't think of anyone better to rehabilitate her. It took a full year to regain that poor little dog's trust, but she was a wonderful dog who bounced back shockingly well, considering how her life started out.

So yeah, if good breeders seem overly nosy and restrictive over who they sell puppies to, THAT is why. THAT is what they are trying to avoid.

I'm not really adding anything that hasn't already been said in one way or another, but I believe you may want to change the way you are looking at this whole situation. I realize this post was probably made in the heat of the moment and that you are frustrated. But you also seem to feel entitled to a puppy because you have the money and believe you are a good home. Firstly, you aren't entitled to a puppy, and secondly, as others have said, you have not proved to the breeders you are contacting that you are a good home. I agree that a lot of breeders are bad about communicating and getting back to people, but if you have actually made contact with so many breeders who have then turned you away one way or another, the issue may not lie with them. Whenever you're in a situation in which you think "everyone else is crazy, I'm right!!!" it's a good idea to take a step back and reevaluate things.

And, while yes there are some power hungry women out there....I really do not believe gender has anything to do with this. I could say a lot more about that part of the rant, but I will refrain.

Writing a post calling Lagotto breeders "insane" probably isn't the best way to make them like you more....Neither is bashing females, regardless of your own gender. It actually makes it worse. And if any of this attitude has leaked through in your communications to breeders, they likely want nothing more to do with you and perhaps have informed other breeders about your behavior.

Anyways, if you're still determined to get a Lagotto and this post hasn't already blacklisted you, you have to remember that this is a rare breed and any breeders are likely to be very selective of who they sell their dogs to. People who are going to show dogs in sports or obedience (or perhaps truffle hunting, haha) and have a track record of previous dogs they have shown or done sports with are more likely to get a puppy than someone who has only kept dogs as pets, unfortunately. That's just the way it is. It sucks, but they want to ensure their rare breed doesn't die out and perhaps becomes more popular. Or maybe they don't. Maybe they want to keep their group small.

Perhaps you should start with a less rare breed, maybe do a few obedience or sports and title a dog so when you look for a Logotto again you can show that you're willing and able to improve upon the breed. You can even do it with a mutt. I've titled my mutt dog to Master level in agility, so one day if I want to get a a purebred I can show off my dog's titles to prove I am willing and able to do something with a breeder's dogs, which would give me more leverage and perhaps bump me to the top of any wait list. And I'm not an every-weekend sports dog person, either I do it like once a month in the fall and winter seasons.

Yep. I got an in with a Saluki breeder because I volunteered to show for her. Put 8 out of 10 points on one of her girls including a major with a BOB from the classes at a Hound group specialty. I've put in the work to get my face out there and known.

Before I knew here I was volunteering with my obedience club (I know, Saluki + obedience, how did that happen?), stewarding obedience, rally, agility. Then organizing a trial. She got me to volunteer as event secretary for our inaugural Sprinter trial. We pulled it off this weekend and had a blast despite the thunder storm.

But if I had come up to her as a stranger with a customer attitude wanting a puppy, she would have shot me down flat. Not only that, the entire Saluki world would know. Not just Saluki breeders in Canada, but those in Australia and Europe as well.

I don’t know if it was you, but another person wrote this same type of inquiry concerning a different breed. (In my usually overly-wordy way, broke down the “psychology” of breeders, in order for a buyer to be more (rather than) less attractive.

I read the disappointment, frustration, and confusion in your message. When ever we have our heart set on something, out of reach, creates more angst.

But I’ve extracted the “drama” out of your narrative to focus on reality.

1. “Breeders” aren’t a “class” of people, it’s what they do. Obtaining a pup through them, is unlike any other business transaction you will complete. Unless they are breeding simply for money. If anything, they operate as “independent contractors.” You know the kind, who may or may not show to remodel your kitchen, and offer a thousand excuses for any delays. That’s why they don’t work for other people!
2. Second, information travels among them (whether friend or foe) faster than the speed of light. It becomes a popularity contest, with the most compelling reason for wanting a dog.
3. Hint: it is not always, and sometimes never, about which buyer has the most money (as demonstrated in their history).
4. If they see a problem upfront (in the public) they anticipate a problem can/will occur after the fact. They abhor dogs being returned, training complaints, ongoing health/temperament “issues” after they’ve done their due diligence screening the pup for sale.
5. Not passing an OFA hip test is reasonable, but there are also degrees of “soundness.” Most is for breeding purposes, less might mean being a “carrier” but not manifesting.
6. Price quotes and terms of deposit always need to be in writing. (I think Judge Judy has already taught us this).
7. Facebook and Website pages are constructed for advertising. But assurances that are required, also need to be in writing.
8. A breeder may have offered an alternative breed to match the qualities that were being sought.
9. Courtesy is courtesy. But I have worked with one. Most who believe in answering every single email. Some, who are just so busy with their stock, are busy enough working with the clients they have. There can be a lot of support and follow-up after a pup is placed.
10. Even for breeds that are not rare, waiting lists can indeed be 3 years long. It is difficult to know how many people inquired before yourself.
11. Breeders will place the most suitable dog with the most suitable owner. And sometimes they don’t know how to make that match until some time goes by.
12. Begging is never a good thing. Anybody (not just breeders) who senses desperation, will second-guess the reason why. That might not make sense, but it is human nature.

13. The last comment is a bit telling, and may be the perception that the breeders have. Namely –

“I don’t know what kind of service any of them thinks they’re doing for their dogs by not selling “ME” a puppy.”

Breeders who’ve been doing this for decades read people better than magicians perform sleight of hand!

And the bottom line is this (for the ones I know) knowing that money can’t buy love! Love is focusing on the pup itself, without drama, and interpersonal conflicts. What seems to be just about breeders, could extend into other situations. And pups should be in a calm, adoring household, including the support from the breeder which the client earns.

I would also wonder, why did your previous dog see so many specialists anyway.

Concerning the breed of Lagotto, you are going to have to start all over. And reinvent yourself. You might consider Canada. But if you wanted to reingraciate yourself among American Lagotto Breeders, the ONLY way to start is by going to Dog Shows. And allowing them to get to know you. Leave all the drama out of it. Speak no ill of anyone you’ve been dealing with. Express NO personal opinions. Focus only on why the Lagotta is of particular interest. Don’t boast about your means and intentions. And don’t discuss your history with dogs, unless asked and relevant to the immediate conversation. But INSTEAD listen, be submissively polite and the essence of a bright, positive, enthusiastic, AND compliant personality! In fact you are going to have to EARN access to their breed. It’s not so much about “supply and demand” (because I have a feeling these folks aren’t breeding for profit, but to improve the breed standard to build up stock, to expand their presence at Dog Shows.) If you are truly interested, you will wait 5 years. And that may be what they’re testing. I’ve seen breeders may that decision, based on how graciously (pleasantly) persistent are their recurring inquiries.

You can ignore all of this. I have a feeling you will. But doing so won’t get any closer to a well-bred Lagotto.