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Discussion Starter #1
Hi, I have a little issue, Josefina was an orphan (dumped at the AC at 4 weeks) the problem is that she at almost 2 yrs old (October 1st is her b day) but she still acts like a bothersome adolescent puppy towards other dogs; she will rub against them & if they tell her off she then lays down & stares at them & will otherwise be bothersome until the other dog retaliates & tells her to shove off, then she becomes combative which she doesn't do with buddy agree male) but she did try to retaliate back with Izze but Izze was very well socialized with many dogs & knew how to handle her if she tried to get combative without hurting her physically (she was a very caring dog deep down & never did things 'just to hurt') but she seems to be worse with other females & dogs smaller then her, why is this?
 

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Sounds like she's socially awkward from lack of a litter at such a young age. Surely you've met people like this: they desperately want friendship, but they push too hard, too fast and piss everyone off. A few very nice, very patient people will put up with them which only reinforces their socially awkward behavior because if it works even once, why not do it again?

As to what you do about a dog like this, I don't know. Sorry.
 

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Hmmm this kind of relates to Bella too. She was also abandoned as a young pup and ended up in the shelter. She is not combative, but she is only 8 months so I'm keeping an eye on it. She is very persistent when she finds a dog she wants to play with, and she is not very considerate of other dogs who don't want to play with her, unless they give her a strong correction.

I sometimes wonder if it has to do with her being fixed at such a young age. She was only two months old when the shelter had it done. I know some people believe that this can keep them very puppyish but I have no idea if there is any truth to that...

For us, fortunately we found a very tolerant group of dogs at our local park. There is a group of us that go everyday at a certain time. Most of the dogs are some type of lab mixes (this seems to be a very tolerant breed). Bella has grown up with them and they all love her crazy play style.

I don't think it is something that can be easily fixed, it's more of just trying to find some good, natured, tolerant playmates.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
she doesn't act like a 'normal' cattle dog, you know? I understand smaller dogs exciting herding instinct, but her behavior isn't instinct, she gets this look in her eyes like ... I don't know how else to explain it other then that look that kids get when they are pestering one another, then when she is told off, she looks at the other dog like she doesn't know why she has been snarked at I am a vetern of ACDs & this isn't normal behavior, she has been socialized with strange dogs since she was a pup so it's not like strange dogs are a new thing.

Besides these aren't strange dogs they are my folks dog's, who she has known since she was adopted at 3 mos. Is there something I can do to stop this? Of course this kind of behavior with the wrong dog can get her killed, so should I correct her when I see her doing it? I have been telling her no. Also at the other place we used to work, there was this young dog about a yr or so old, they used to play with one another but when Buddy would join in it became a 'gang up' on Josefina every time (they didn't physically Hurt her but I could tell she wasn't having fun) one time I didn't intervene, thinking she would take care of it but she never did tell them off, but by that time buddy had gotten tired of playing (he's an older guy & isnt very energetic lol) but every time after that I saw it happening I stopped it. I didn't know if I should or shouldn't because if I did she would never learn how to tell off other dogs herself, but if I didnt I was afraid of it getting out of hand & her getting hurt.
 

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Maybe you could redirect to a different behavior or a time out when she starts up? I don't think corrections will work because they don't tell her what to do instead. And clearly her idea of what to do is wrong, so she'll probably just pick an even worse behavior.

I still think its related to losing the litter so young. A huge amount of brain wiring happens at that age, the loss could have seriously affected that process.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Yeah she is very 'funny' lol, she doesn't act like any dog I have ever known in 20 yrs of owning dogs, she wasn't alone, she did have her brothers but she (from what the shelter said) bullied them lol. She was also spayed at a young age cuz it was thr shelter's policy. She doesn't really hang with the other dogs, or do what they do (even pups I have has will entertain themselves with toys but they will stay in the vacinity of the other dogs) she goes completely off by herself like she has some urge to wonder of something
 

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I tend to agree with what Amaryllis said. I understand what you are saying about being "off" If you remember ... I rescued Benny at 4 weeks old. He is just not quite right. Lol! He is smart ... but wierd when it comes to other dogs. He is a downright pest of himself! But he is so huge now ... he has the upper hand.

When he was with my Sister ... Kokomo who is a 45 pound Lab mix and almost 10 years old ... tried to put him in his place ... but he never listened. It was as if nothing phased him. I had him until he was 10 weeks old and I KNOW I tried socializing him with people and other dogs too ......

I would try a time-out ... just as if she were a pup. It is never too late to teach an older dog new tricks ... IMHO. :) Really ... she is still just a pup! I would hate to see her end up on the losing end. :(
 

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Stomping around in new ground, so let me suggest some 'new' ideas -
We all know about people and dog (and animal) socialization. And a less mentioned experience (and noise) 'socialization' where experience occurs when you take the dog for a ride and to go shopping to experience automatic doors, shopping carts, and so on... the type of exposure that therapy and service dogs were expected to have, and now enlightened pet owners are also doing.

So let me suggest play [or interaction] socialization, which I'd suggest as the next phase after dog socialization.

Amaryllis said: Socially awkward - You've met people like this: they desperately want friendship, but they push too hard, too fast and piss everyone off.

Let me start here, but rather than an awkward nerd, we have a clueless high school football player, who has put on 10 pounds of muscle over the summer, and still wants to horse around in the hallway... but now he's much stronger, so most people don't want to play. By analogy, Josefina has a certain energy level [I don't mean an abstract energy flow, but a very visible level of energy.] and she wants to play. She finds some dogs that match her energy but other dogs don't and she doesn't understand.

So, with a nod to Turid Rugaas (socialize to learn Calming Signal communications) and even to Cesar Millan (working with a group of dogs to learn what levels of interaction may be acceptable), I suggest that you try to find some socialized dogs that like to play at her energy level to help her burn off some energy and learn some rules, before she gets into a fight. She may never learn not to pester other dogs, but she might learn to back off when snarked, rather than be threatened and escalate... I dunno, this is kinda new ground.

However, my fixed, Lab mix Shep, altho well socialized, will hump anything [kinda :) ], because he learned that dogs will chase him or play with him if he humps them... dangerous idea, but it works for him. What can I say, he's got Cary Grant charm.
1. If a dog barks at him, he will look the other way, then walk off.
2. If a dog gives him the evil eye, Shep may bark and playbow, or just back off.
3. If the dog doesn't play, Shep will push with a foreleg or hump [male or female]. If snarked, Shep backs off, barks, and playbows. Usually the other dog ignores him, then Shep will hump again. After 3 times, I'll pull Shep away... this is something he won't learn.
4. Once they recognize a lack of aggression, many dogs will ignore him. Then, Shep will hump them and they don't snark... so Shep gets a little excited and I have to remove him :)
5. However, More times than not, Shep has been able to find a playmate.
6. On the other hand, Shep will go after adolescent Lab pups with glee. Then he re-discovers the significant energy mis-match and snarks the Lab pups. It works once or twice, but Labs learn quickly... that Shep is all bark, and They torture Him... So, I have to go rescue him...
7. Altho we do this in the dog park... and maybe we've been lucky over the past 10 years, Shep learned to do this with a controlled group of dogs playing after training sessions.

Hope this helps ???
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Yeah some dogs when she gets snarked she will get really mad at, ESP with smaller dogs, with Izze, Izze was strong enough as well as Buddy are strong enough that her snarks back don't effect him, wherest a dog her size or smaller then her sees it as a 'them's fightin' words' gesture lol but I want to help her (tho I don't think there is much I can do bc she seems to like getting other dogs' goats) but when I catch he knowingly doing that I correct her. I have tried to redirect without correction, but it doesn't work with her, it's like something so I correct her then redirect, I dont like being that confrontational but it's the only thing that works with her :/
 

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she doesn't act like a 'normal' cattle dog, you know? I understand smaller dogs exciting herding instinct, but her behavior isn't instinct, she gets this look in her eyes like ... I don't know how else to explain it other then that look that kids get when they are pestering one another, then when she is told off, she looks at the other dog like she doesn't know why she has been snarked at I am a vetern of ACDs & this isn't normal behavior, she has been socialized with strange dogs since she was a pup so it's not like strange dogs are a new thing.

Besides these aren't strange dogs they are my folks dog's, who she has known since she was adopted at 3 mos. Is there something I can do to stop this? Of course this kind of behavior with the wrong dog can get her killed, so should I correct her when I see her doing it? I have been telling her no. Also at the other place we used to work, there was this young dog about a yr or so old, they used to play with one another but when Buddy would join in it became a 'gang up' on Josefina every time (they didn't physically Hurt her but I could tell she wasn't having fun) one time I didn't intervene, thinking she would take care of it but she never did tell them off, but by that time buddy had gotten tired of playing (he's an older guy & isnt very energetic lol) but every time after that I saw it happening I stopped it. I didn't know if I should or shouldn't because if I did she would never learn how to tell off other dogs herself, but if I didnt I was afraid of it getting out of hand & her getting hurt.

If I am reading this correctly.... Your girl pesters and picks at dogs trying to initiate play. When the other dog does not respond in the manner she wishes, she "seems offended" gets testy and escalates things....

Is that about it?
 

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I'm not sure I got the same meaning out of that you did, JB. The whole post is a little confusing.

Either way, if another dog snarks at her and she ignores the reprimand, remove her and put her in a 15-20 second time out. Put her somewhere boring like the bathroom so that the time out can't be rewarding. I don't recommend letting it escalate beyond that.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
If I am reading this correctly.... Your girl pesters and picks at dogs trying to initiate play. When the other dog does not respond in the manner she wishes, she "seems offended" gets testy and escalates things....

Is that about it?
yes, but we have been using the "That's it." in a stern voice followed by a time out in the kennel i have here, its about 8 x 10 & has no toys & no water (i dont leave her in there for more then a minute at a time, as she will play with the water :/) it has been working, i think she only gets like this with 'new' dogs, dogs she doesnt see or live with on a regular basis.

but i think she will always have this about her personality, i think, cuz of her upbringing, its who she is.
 

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yes, but we have been using the "That's it." in a stern voice followed by a time out in the kennel i have here, its about 8 x 10 & has no toys & no water (i dont leave her in there for more then a minute at a time, as she will play with the water :/) it has been working, i think she only gets like this with 'new' dogs, dogs she doesnt see or live with on a regular basis.

but i think she will always have this about her personality, i think, cuz of her upbringing, its who she is.
I think you can control it. But I also always think she will have it.

That behavior is very common in ACD's. They instigate, start crap, etc. More do it than don't. The best thing to do is re direct and cut it off before it escalates.

Her not liking other bitches is common among ACD bitches. They tend to be choosy and have opinions on who they like and do not like.

Just be glad you don't have one that does not like other dogs at all. Because there are those out there as well. (usually males though it seems)

I have a bitch that doesn't like any dog she does not know. She is not aggressive about it. But every cunning and calculating. She will act fine (indifferent anyway) on leash and if she is close to me. But if the strange dog moves away from me, and she is loose, she will try to work her way to the dog without looking like she is heading towards the dog. If she thinks she can jump on the dog, get a couple of licks in and get away, before I can get to her, she will. This is a dog that has lived with other dogs her entire life.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
@Johnnybandit thats how Josefina is with some other females & smaller dogs (its not herding instinct, its more like a 'you are smaller & i can bully you' deal), i have been being consistant about watching her (my folks house has picture windows all over so the whole yard is visible) & catching her when she is doing her crap, time outing her & such. idealy she would be better as an olny dog or with male dogs only (when Buddy snarks at her she listens & doesnt do it again) but Bear she wanted to get a little combattive & uppity about it when he told her off so i time outed her a couple of times & she listens to him now when he tells her off, but i can tell its not cuz she respects him LOL, its because she respects ME :/
 

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I'm not sure I got the same meaning out of that you did, JB. The whole post is a little confusing.

Either way, if another dog snarks at her and she ignores the reprimand, remove her and put her in a 15-20 second time out. Put her somewhere boring like the bathroom so that the time out can't be rewarding. I don't recommend letting it escalate beyond that.
What's all of this 'time out' positive reinforcement stuff that keeps coming up? How does that even work? THey're not humans, they're descendants of wolves. I have an open mindi if someone would like to explain it to me, though.

The problem is with this dog is that since she hasn't had full development (I know we've already established this) it's already hardwired into her brian. There really isn't much you could do about it. Maybe try exhausting her before taking her to the dog park? Play ball in the yard, jog her a couple blocks? Then see if she acts any differently. You might want to consider finding an older, more experienced dog for her to learn from. A dog that would correct her if she got too pushy.
 

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In this aspect, dogs are VERY much unlike wolves, in that dogsd tend to LIKE other dogs (wolves kill other wolves) and dogs are genetically selected to like attention from people, while wolves are shy and flee from people when given the chance.

So, if you withdraw attention from a dog, it can be a non-aversive form of punishment. I can be more percise, but that's the gist. It works very well to get the attention of retrievers, almost as well with herders, and some terriers, as well as other breeds. (Also seems to work with basenjis in the right situation :)

I agree with your intent, but the original post stated that when she is reprimanded (snarked) by other dogs, she escalates and gets confrontational rather than submissive. So, my suggestion is to find a variety of dogs with the same energy level for her to play with, regardless of age and experience, to help build the difficient social skills.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
What's all of this 'time out' positive reinforcement stuff that keeps coming up? How does that even work? THey're not humans, they're descendants of wolves. I have an open mindi if someone would like to explain it to me, though.

The problem is with this dog is that since she hasn't had full development (I know we've already established this) it's already hardwired into her brian. There really isn't much you could do about it. Maybe try exhausting her before taking her to the dog park? Play ball in the yard, jog her a couple blocks? Then see if she acts any differently. You might want to consider finding an older, more experienced dog for her to learn from. A dog that would correct her if she got too pushy.
i had a feeling i would get an answer like this LOL, its ok tho, i know what to do, i just wanted different opinions on why she developed this way & if what i was doing (time outs, privelage loss) was working & it is but she will never not be like this, that much is true, it is hard wired into her brain, but my goal is to make her think before doing, i believe that i can change her train of thinking somewhat when it comes to other dogs (these are my folks dogs, mind you, not some random DP dogs... these are dogs who have been well socialized & well adjusted) i would NEVER attempt a DP with Josefina, she would be mauled & attacked or at least harassed (she tends to be a humping target LOL) thus she wouldnt learn anything.

she grew up with a dog who would correct her if she got too uppity... the problem is dogs dont generalize, so she doesnt know not to do this with ALL dogs; also she is a very nervous/mistrusting, flighty, almost feral-like personality & any overbearing punishment based method (like the ones CM uses) would destroy her trust, i have stopped using no as it is because no would make her run :(.

she had another dog like this at the place we used to work, a friend's dog who was a bit younger then her, a yr or so. but i could tell there were times she was tired & didnt want to play anymore & the other dog (a young catahoula/aussie mix) would keep pouncing on her & running her around because she didnt know how to tell her 'i've had enough' it was not & i did step in cuz it got so bad that the other dog didnt even let her drink water, so she got to where she would come to me if she got too tired or overwhelmed because the other dog wouldnt approach (i used body blocking for the other dog). LOL i would always tell her 'see, this is what YOU do to other dogs, how does it FEEL?' LOL LOL
 

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@Valuta
A time out is negative punisment not positive reinforcement. Dogs are not wolves any more than they are humans. But that's irrelevant. All living animals operate within four quadrants of learning theory: Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment. So I'll give you an example from my day to day life working in doggy daycare. Enzo sat when I told him sit so I immediately threw the tennis ball. That's positive reinforcement. I just made the sit behavior stronger. But say Joe mounts Louie and that is a bad behavior. Louie won't tell Joe to stop so I give Joe a no reward marker("Too bad") and lead him into a kennel for time out. Time outs should not last any longer than 30 seconds and I ask the dog to sit or down before letting them back out. In Joe's mind, all the fun stopped when he heard too bad. It's that much more punishing if it's a super social dog that really wants to be part of the group. Basically, good things end when the dog performs an unwanted behavior.
 

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@Valuta
A time out is negative punisment not positive reinforcement. Dogs are not wolves any more than they are humans. But that's irrelevant. All living animals operate within four quadrants of learning theory: Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment. So I'll give you an example from my day to day life working in doggy daycare. Enzo sat when I told him sit so I immediately threw the tennis ball. That's positive reinforcement. I just made the sit behavior stronger. But say Joe mounts Louie and that is a bad behavior. Louie won't tell Joe to stop so I give Joe a no reward marker("Too bad") and lead him into a kennel for time out. Time outs should not last any longer than 30 seconds and I ask the dog to sit or down before letting them back out. In Joe's mind, all the fun stopped when he heard too bad. It's that much more punishing if it's a super social dog that really wants to be part of the group. Basically, good things end when the dog performs an unwanted behavior.
That's what I have been doing lol the whole 'too Bad' no play nice... No play & it has been workit for us.

I know how to redirect & stop her & the correct & redirect with time out has been working but I just wanted some opinions as to why she was behaving this way in the first place lol... I love her but she is so weird :/
 

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It really just sounds like she didn't develop social skills properly and I see similar things in daycare all the time. Heck, I had a Berner in daycare for about a year and this boy tried so hard but his doggy social skills were crap. He would be playing bowing at a dog trying to initiate play but he'd also be curling his lips and barking at the same time. You could see the confusion in the other dogs like,"Does he want me to play with him or go away...?" Most of the dogs he tried to play with opted not to play with him. It probably doesn't help your cause since ACDs generally choose fight vs flight.
 
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