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I found the negative markers thread fascinating -- well, until it turned into a virtual spitball fight. https://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/503806-negative-markers.html
I now understand the reasons for not saying "No" during a formal training session, though I'm not completely sure how to give a pooch feedback when it tries and tries to do the right thing but still misses out on what the trainer wants. I guess we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

But what about behavior correction? Is there ever a time when it is appropriate to say "No!" to a puppy or dog? If yes, can you give some examples?

I ask because my pup is nippy little thing, which is expected since she's a 7-week-old border collie. (yes, I know, she should not have come to me until she was 8 weeks, but the choice was not mine). She is a mix of sweet lil' angel and out-of-control terror.

Her angel times are when she's sleeping, cuddling, resting or gently playing with her toys.

Her terror time is just about any time I or my son (adult) are playing with her. She sometimes accidentally / sometimes intentionally nips hands, arms and clothing while playing tug with her little rope. If we are outside for a little fun romping exercise, she'll chase after me, nipping at my socks, shoes, pant legs, which I understand is a normal herder trait. And many times, instead of going potty, she'll attack my pant legs or edge of my nightgown. (she's a baby, we still do 3 a.m. potty runs) During all these times, we say, "Ouch!" and if she continues to bite -- say, three or four "ouch" times -- we'll put her in her playpen or walk away and sit down and ignore her. Sometimes, if she's especially ornery, she'll come over and growl-attack my unmoving feet or she'll start growling and chomping the wire on her playpen (but not her ball, puppy Kong or other chew toys). BTW, she seems to be at her worst when she's tired. It's like she gets a big dose of ornery energy just before she conks out for a nap.

Do any of these times warrant a "no"? I'm a little worried about being able to give her enough physical exercise if we have to keep stopping our play time. If now is not the time, what about when she is older? Is there ever an appropriate time to say "No"?

FYI, I once saw one of my favorite YouTube positive dog trainers Kayl McCann of McCann Dog Training jerk her dog's collar, pulling up his front feet off the ground and say, "Stop that please" after gently correcting her dog twice for the same thing (sniffing the carpet). I couldn't help but wonder if that was the same as a "no." The correction takes place about 18:25 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPJzpzHjb54
 

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I mean, go ahead and try "NO"s all you want and see if it will stop a bitey puppy... :D

Here's the thing. I don't think people should feel morally inferior for using a verbal correction. However, it doesn't teach your dog what TO do. Do you think your puppy will just... lie down and be an angel if told off for nipping? More often, they bite more, or they bite certain family members or not others, or they resort to other inappropriate behavior. There are some dogs who feel punished enough that it will work. But there certainly are other ways.

Instead of a bite rope, have a bite RAG (more grippable and satisfying for puppy teeth). If you aren't adept at redirecting or ignoring behavior, forego nightgowns and other billowing things until you get the training under control. Biting is what puppies, especially herding puppies, DO. But biting you or instigating play time all the time with you... is a learned behavior. Potty time, keep it strictly business (or plop the puppy in a pen where she can't reach you) and engage in tug when calm. I taught my dog (as an tiny pup) that ANY play starts with calm behavior first. From day one, he learned exactly how to make me play with him. He's one of the bitiest pups I've ever met and still into adulthood. We've never had any inappropriate nipping with me or my partner (who followed my instructions to a T), and I've never had to correct him for inappropriate mouthing.

Here's a video of when my boy was 8.5-10 weeks old. https://youtu.be/YSXPXWwQXnA
Notice at around :26 he tries to bite the blue brush, and notice how I responded. I could have EASILY turned that into a mouthy/play situation by 'reacting' to him. THAT is where it starts for most puppies and people. Biting people is a learned behavior. Your pup probably learned it by all of your "Ouch!"es (ie, verbal reaction/attention) and your "little fun romping exercises". I would never encourage a mouthy puppy to chase me unless it was a structured game that resulted in calm behavior (ex. chase then sit for treat) or appropriate tug (ex. chase and caught tug toy).
 

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FYI, I once saw one of my favorite YouTube positive dog trainers Kayl McCann of McCann Dog Training jerk her dog's collar, pulling up his front feet off the ground and say, "Stop that please" after gently correcting her dog twice for the same thing (sniffing the carpet). I couldn't help but wonder if that was the same as a "no." The correction takes place about 18:25 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPJzpzHjb54
She says her dog has had "thousands of repetitions" for heel position, but it seems to me he's also had *hundreds of repetitions* of really poor treat delivery. That is what's causing him to disengage / sniff the floor for dropped pieces and crumbs so insistently in the first place. There's a history there too, albeit an unwanted one.

Therefore, the alternative to correcting the dog would be the handler improving their treat delivery skills. In my opinion that would be a much better approach to training, fundamentally speaking, rather than resorting to physical or verbal corrections. Especially in that particular circumstance. You can't really blame the dog for 'failing' when it's actually due to handler error.
 

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That video is gross in many ways. At around 22:42, she demonstrates what she would do if a dog was lying down during a sit, and what she does is use force and pull up excessively with pressure on the dog's neck (dog's front feet off the ground) until the dog is in a sit. I don't know why she needs to choke the dog here and in the correction at 18:25. This person is way too handsy with her dog, imo. I actually thought the sniffing was displacement behavior. I did not notice poor treat delivery, but I also did not watch the whole thing (just skipped around to some unimpressive training segments). And admittedly, my treat delivery is abysmal (but I don't have any problems with displacement behavior or sniffing when I want focus).

I HAVE had challenges (for like 3 minutes) with Brae lying down with a "sit" and when I got frustrated he would lie down more. Shocker, dogs do that when they get frustrated or want to appease. When I went back a few steps, just for that training session, there were no problems with sit anymore and Brae can do position change exercises from 30+ feet away.
 

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Also, this is from a comment made by the company regarding someone's question about heel:

"You can still reward your dog for walking in a “heel” position. But be sure that rewarding with food isn’t the only reason that he’s in that position. Try making a quick turn to your right(this will force him to work a little harder to maintain position). Praise him when he gets back into the appropriate position. Keep praising him if he remains there for a couple of seconds and reward him for a job well done. If he gets out of position you can use little pulses on your leash to get his attention, and to guide him back in to your side."

So, still a ton of leash corrections. Their website is great at marketing and as vague as you'd expect 'balanced' trainers to be. As usual, there is no need for this to teach beautiful heelwork.
 

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I now understand the reasons for not saying "No" during a formal training session, though I'm not completely sure how to give a pooch feedback when it tries and tries to do the right thing but still misses out on what the trainer wants. I guess we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

But what about behavior correction?
Also, with all due respect I don't think you quite understand. What separates a "formal training session" from "behavior correction"? In ANY training session, you change behavior. Is spending 10 minutes to work on sits and downs and stays really different from taking seconds at a time throughout the day to reward appropriate behaviors as they happen? I think barriers in training happen when owners create these separations in their minds. As if it's okay or better to scold in 'everyday life' with a dog but not 'while we're working on training', as if it's excused or justified because it 'didn't happen in a formal training session.'
 

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Here's a video of when my boy was 8.5-10 weeks old. https://youtu.be/YSXPXWwQXnA
Sorry for off topic, but woof! I'm so impressed with your training and dedication. I need to really push myself and my dog this winter to gain some of the skills you're showing.

I'm still working 'no' out of my vocabulary. It was this forum that reinforced my thinking about it, and how little it helps training.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Also, with all due respect I don't think you quite understand. What separates a "formal training session" from "behavior correction"? In ANY training session, you change behavior. Is spending 10 minutes to work on sits and downs and stays really different from taking seconds at a time throughout the day to reward appropriate behaviors as they happen? I think barriers in training happen when owners create these separations in their minds. As if it's okay or better to scold in 'everyday life' with a dog but not 'while we're working on training', as if it's excused or justified because it 'didn't happen in a formal training session.'
You are right. I did not understand. I followed the Negative Marker thread and was under the impression that "No" was not meant to be during marker training -- what I referred to as formal training. I was unsure if it applied to the daily routine that did not include marker training. That is why I asked about using the word "no" in this thread.

Like NorCalFMD, I was also impressed by your training video with Braeburn. My pup and I had our first bit of kibble training today. I've watched dozens of training videos and others make it look so easy. It's not. My pup and I performed some seriously clumsy hand tracking. Our short sit session went much better, though.

Canyx, your "as if" remarks make it seem as though you believe I'm looking for someone to tell me it's okay to beat my dog over the head with a rolled up towel (what Larry Krohn recommends for biting puppies). I can assure you that I am only here to learn to be the best pet parent I can be. You don't have to like me or my questions. But if you truly want to help owners and their pups, then treat us like dogs. Teach us. Train us. One step at a time. Show us the right way but don't talk to us in a condescending manner or give us a virtual Negative Marker "as if it's okay" or "as if it's excused or justified just because" this is the faceless internet.

FYI, I am not here to get in the middle of the little one-upping matches I've seen in so many other threads on this forum. I promise. I'm simply here to learn how to best raise my pup to be happy, healthy and loved.
 

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I'm going to try to explain my thoughts/experiences with using negative markers as clearly as I can. I do, as I mentioned in the other thread, use NRMs in everyday interactions with Sam, even though I agree with the idea that they are unnecessary and often even counterproductive. "Why" generally boils down to: it's a bad habit, I'm lazy, and Sam is generally confident/resilient enough to not be bothered by them much.

For illustrative purposes, I'll use this scenario: Sam loves to be in the kitchen while we cook, clean, etc. We do not love him being under our feet when we're handling sharp objects, have hot oil spitting on the stove, need to open the oven, etc. So as a compromise, we've set up a dog bed in a spot in the kitchen where he's safely away from any dangers (and we're safe from falling over him). We trained this with rewards. He already knew a "place" command, but we did do specific training with this particular bed in this particular spot, and we also continue to reward him there often with dog-safe scraps from our meal prep/cleanup. However, it's a kitchen. Stuff winds up on the floor, or we wind up working with some food item that's just so tempting that he couldn't possibly stay put.

And, very often, when one of us sees him about to break his place or completely off it, we respond with an "ah-ah", an "ahem", or a stern "mom look" with raised eyebrows. Sometimes including stepping into his space or between him and a dropped goodie. They all work. We see him look at the temptation, look at us, reluctantly sit his butt back down. And we often follow that with praise and a reward - sometimes even the dropped food item, assuming it's appropriate - but what happens next time? Sometimes only minutes, when our attention is elsewhere? Yup. He's popped up and at our feet again.

So, even though I have a dog who's not much bothered by NRMs, and who does respond to them in the moment, they seem to do absolute bupkis for changing behavior in the long-run. What has been extremely effective (for us) in changing behavior long-term? Going back and increasing the rate of reward, resetting the dog calmly when he makes a mistake - and immediately make the task easier so he doesn't make another! - and choosing management if we're not able to give him the time and attention required. That may mean something like barricading him from the kitchen when there's only one person home and they're elbows-deep in making a messy or complicated meat dish - IE when it'd be nearly impossible to be capturing his good choices to reward and to actually make the food at the same time.

Another thing I've heard recently - I don't remember if it was here or elsewhere but it bears repeating - is that if your dog responds to a NRM, it's punishing to them. That's why it works. It's a mild punishment for most dogs - barring those discussed in the other thread - but it's worth being aware of. I try my best to avoid punishments (and I AM trying to be better about the NRMs, as much as I jest about being lazy), but I'm especially careful about it when I know the dog doesn't know - or is physically capable of performing - an alternate behavior. In our case, this can mean when Sam is totally over threshold reacting to another dog - he's over-aroused and pumped full of adrenaline and not physically capable of offering any calmer behaviors (which is happening less! But still an issue).

But it also applies to baby puppies, who genuinely don't know how to play appropriately with people yet, and are way more likely to hit that "ornery" stage - as you describe it - where any impulse control they have falls apart and they just... well, essentially throw a tantrum. It's like an over-tired toddler. Even though toddlers understand English better than most dogs (well, maybe not a BC, haha!) you can't really reason with them when they've reached a meltdown, because they haven't developed the mental and emotional impulse control to. There's not really anything you can do for that kind of behavior in the moment other than pop the puppy into a crate or pen to encourage them to settle and take a nap. For regular (non-tantrum) nipping, I do think consistently removing yourself when teeth meet skin is the most neutral way to teach a pup the natural consequences of getting too bitey. Yelping or saying "ouch" in a hurt tone works for some people, but in many cases it makes the pup more excited, and will probably become a NRM once the puppy realizes it always signals the end of playtime.

...if all that made sense, I'm basically saying using "No" or the like probably won't scar your pup for life or anything, but it also really isn't a very effective way to teach a dog or change their behavior long-term.
 

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I hate to come back here but here goes (because I think I can help you).

"No" is not appropriate in the situations you are describing. All you do in a puppy and in this situation is teach the puppy that No is pretty meaningless. In fact, the use of a negative marker is not appropriate in this either. I ONLY use that as a guide and will not discuss it's use here again. Ever.

I watched a bit of that video and it was just bad timing and bad treat delivery.. too much talking and waving hands and no clarity to the dog. Less talk, quiet body and better timing with delivery would help her succeed (the heel video). Sniffing was avoidance and/or hoping for a dropped treat and really.. so much grey due to the hand flailing, too much talking and bad timing. I am blessed right now in this location with a computer with NO SOUND. Watch the video muted.. the behavior and lack of clarity to the dog is much more clear.

When teaching a new thing, I never "correct" the dog. The dog doesn't KNOW what you want so how can a correction stop anything? All it can do is serve to confuse the dog and damage your relationship with the dog.

To stop a behavior you must first teach a different and desirable behavior. Then you proof it ad nauseum. When the dog will respond to the behavior and understands the behavior (and HEELING is REALLY HARD and takes about 20 months to actually "get," so a simpler behavior is a better example.. such as down or sit) and will repeat the behavior reliably in any environment NOW you know the dog KNOWS the behavior. At this point, if the dog blows you off a correction is added at a level appropriate to that dog.

I tell you what.. when I am shaping a behavior I almost never had collar and leash on the dog.

In fact, when a dog is in advanced training I almost never have a leash on a collar (dog does wear a fursaver and the leash, when attached, is never in the live or choking ring). The object of a leash (or any restrictive or corrective device) is to "have and not need."

Sooo.. getting back to your puppy. Puppy is Mr. Bitey because that is what puppies do. Time out can work (and you are doing that). Redirecting to an appropriate toy can also work. You may need to use different toys, though I have found a length of fake sheep skin to be very effective.

You need to help him learn that there is a time for play and a time for potty. I use my words and rewards for potty. I start by using the words ("go potty" for pee and "Poop" for.. well.. poop) AS THE DOG IS GOING and follow it up with treat. No play until potty is done. Funny thing is they learn.. and when it is time to go somewhere I sound like my Mom when we were little kids, "We cannot leave until you Go Potty..." Ha! The "get it" too. That is even funnier. Using words lets them understand what the job at hand is. Of course, you have a puppy.. a little kid.. so just like a toddler, there are going to be lots of trying moments.

I have used a flirt pole to redirect a really bitey puppy very effectively.. but I stopped since the flirt pole can cause very tight turns and jumping in a young dog who has open growth plates with the biggest concern being the back which growth plates do not close until the dog in around a year.. maybe 14 months (I forget.. I don't do jumping over anything higher than a 2X4 laid on edge on the ground until after 18 months old). There are quite a few incidents of German Shepherds needing lower back surgery *with lengthy crate rest recovery) and the current hypothesis is that they are jumping up, over and onto things at too young an age. So I put that out there and you do not have a German Shepherd.
 

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I did not notice poor treat delivery, but I also did not watch the whole thing
Perhaps I should have added "treat selection" to my comment. To be honest, it's difficult to see what she is using for treats. But I suspect she has often used 'crumbly' treats and been somewhat sloppy in her delivery mechanics as well. Regardless of which treats a person uses, the ultimate intent is for 100% of the treat to be ingested by the dog. Not 98 % in the mouth and 2 % inadvertently on the floor. If / when the latter happens frequently enough, with some dogs you'll inevitably get the secondary sniffing and disengagement seen in the video. Despite the possibility that no crumbs may be present at that time. It's a history thing.

And then, like I mentioned earlier, is it really fair to correct the dog in any way shape or form for our own 'shortcomings' ?

I guess what I'm saying is that basically, the corrections appear to be the ill-gotten byproduct of nearsighted prep work combined with careless training. So, in my opinion, no. Not fair.

(ie: sliced hot dogs would be a better choice, since crumbs are virtually non-existent).
 

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I use a variety of verbal interruptors - including no, what the eff, excuse me, what, whoa, are you *insane*, knock it off, hey, etc - the thing is, I don't expect them to really work to change behavior. I don't use them when teaching behavior. I use them to make the dog stop what it's doing and look at me in life (Ie: no, really, stop snuffling around that corner, get your feet off the coffee table, are you seriously carrying around a stock pot, whatever). That's really, literally, it and that's how it works. I say something to my dog, they respond to the tone (not angry but looking at them and speaking is something they recognize as me talking to them) and words they don't understand to see what I want and I redirect them onto something else.

My non-verbal version o this with the deaf dog is poking her gently on the butt. Turn, look at me to figure out what's up, get redirected.

Is this a conscious *training choice*? No. Because I do not believe they're teaching my dog a bloody thing. Constantly being redirected away from something does make them eventually give it up, and on that level it's punishing, but they're not really learning anything. It is, however, a natural part of vocabulary and life, not doing the dogs I have damage (where as trying to teach new behaviors and doing a lot of 'not that' can be, with them) and I don't actually have any motivation to rework my entire vocabulary to remove those words.
 

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Though, again, I do use NRM. My one of my 'been doing this for years' dogs pops weaves, they hear 'oops' and come back and reset/retry. They know how to weave, and the reason they popped is usually a bad entry, collection or footing problem. Do they LIKE having to come back and try again? No. Not really. Am I likely to stop using that oops to get them back to go again? Also no. Because in the grand scheme of things 'try again' is less likely to snowball into things I don't want FOR MY DOGS - than finishing the course without having finished the weaves.

When learning to weave? They tried, have a reset cookie! and we'll jackpot the successes.
 

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At around 22:42, she demonstrates what she would do if a dog was lying down during a sit, and what she does is use force and pull up excessively with pressure on the dog's neck (dog's front feet off the ground) until the dog is in a sit. I don't know why she needs to choke the dog here (...)
Yeah. She claims you have to be cautious of creating an unwanted chain. So, how about re-setting by simply using a signal / luring back up into a sit with no treat in the hand, and no reinforcement forthcoming? Her dog certainly seems intelligent and responsive enough.

On the other hand, she seems intent on teaching him a lesson via P+ to prevent any future repeats. Personally, as more of a long term solution I would temporarily increase RoR for the sit. It obviously needs to have more value assigned to it. And the down needs to have less value. Completely hands off, and works for me.
 

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@NorCal, THANKS :D And believe me, I had to work on it too!

@oldngray, I did not imply at all that you were abusing your dog or wanting to beat it over the head with a towel roll. The word I used was "scold". I think I did provide many suggestions (sorry if they weren't helpful). And the comment I made that you are referring to is general, and perhaps critical and challenging. But nowhere do I imply that I dislike you, or think you are doing wrong by your dog. In fact, I haven't even said not to scold or punish - I listed alternatives and reasons why they may not work. I DO want to challenge anyone using punishment to think about Why they are actually using them and How they are actually working. I used to justify a lot (ex. "I'll just use the prong collar during this phase. It's only a few corrections when he's being 'bad'. Look his tail's still wagging otherwise. This will let me walk him more. I never use it in all these other situations") and for me personally, that mental block prevented me from being a better trainer. I was too busy trying to figure out how to squeeze corrections in 'the right way' rather than thinking outside that box. However, if you read my comment as too harsh then I apologize.

I'm not some zen owner/trainer who never gets frustrated. I used to be a "balanced trainer" and even in the last few years I've yelled, grabbed, yanked, etc. VERY rarely nowadays, and in situations where my temper fails, not really for any sake of training. But for 100% of those situations, I could look back and think of a dozen ways I could have acted to prevent that kind of conflict. I didn't used to be able to do that.
 

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I think it can be very, very hard for a lot of people to separate 'training philosophy' from 'life' and that can make a lot of people feel a whole lot of pressure and/or guilt and/or anger and isn't helpful.

Yes, your dog is learning whether you're in a dedicated training session or not.

But choosing not to use pain/fear to teach a new behavior inside those training sessions doesn't mean I'm going to tie myself into a pretzel because my dog irritated me and I snapped at them. Conversely, I'm not going to use 'snapping at my dog because it irritated me and the dog didn't break' as justification for deliberately snapping at my dog as a means of teaching behavior.

I, overall, choose to build new behavior in my dogs. That means rewards. I do sports where confidence and happy leads to better performance. That means rewards. I am a fairly soft person with fairly soft dogs. That means - you got it - rewards. If I have a problem, my thought process is 'what do I want and how do I get it' - that leads back to building alternative behavior and again rewards.

But I'm also a person who just lives with my dogs. That time Kiran leaped up, latched onto my boob with his teeth? I screamed, shoved him off and stalked away from him. Kylie eating my sock? I noticed and said, "HEY!" grabbed the sock and walked off to throw it in the laundry.

IF ANY of these were on going issues, I'd address them with building other behavior (or, you know, be more careful about picking up my socks!). I'd develop a plan and I'd TEACH. I could tell you what the ideal handling of either of those scenarios are - and the ideal handling would work. But I'm also a person, living my life, and sharing it and my home with dogs. I'm not going to tie myself into guilt knots because I don't always *use* those methods in the heat of the moment. I won't call those things training - they're not - but I'm just... not going to go beat myself up about it.

And... I think people cutting themselves some slack and/or separating those things would be a good idea and make a lot of people a lot less miserable owning dogs. That's important.
 

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Dog's don't come pre-programmed with the word "no." They have no idea what it means, so I think the way you are using it (for biting) is incorrect. Just like common commands like sit or down, "no" has to be taught.

You can, however, teach a dog that "No" means "do not eat that thing on the floor" or "leave that thing alone" or "stop and look at me." Personally, I would not recommend that because "No" is one of those words that pops out involuntarily in some situations, like when your dog is about to consume and entire slice of road pizza. This might lead to the word becoming muddled in the dog's mind, and then they don't know what it means.

I don't use "no" or negative markers, generally, but "no" has come out when my dog has found some food on the side of the road or roll in something disgusting. It's more of a long wail of disgust, lol, but it typically gets the dog to stop, after which I immediately give him a command he DOES know, like "come" or "leave it" and reward him for his compliance. So, "no" is most often an accident for me, haha. I know it's not actually teaching him anything and is generally useless because I have never taught him that "no" means anything.

Also, saying anything to a biting puppy might escalate the situation. It gets them excited. It's best to first try to redirect to an appropriate toy, and if the behavior continues get up, walk away, and ignore. Pop them in a pen or crate if need be. And yes, puppies do get ornerier when they're tired! Even my 3.5 year old gets a bit ornery when he's tired, lol. At that time, its best for a chew and a nap in the crate!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thank you so much to EVERYONE who has responded in this thread. I'm going to reread all the posts a few more times over the next couple of weeks (for moral support) as I do my best to bring up my little girl.

Yesterday, I picked up a bully stick for her to chew on. Works great! She sits quietly on my lap and lets me massage her feet, rub her ears, and stroke her entire body while she chews, chews, chews appropriately. I need to takes steps to get her more interested in her toys. Redirecting to them works only for a few seconds before she's back to biting skin. And during our playtime, if I roll a ball in front of her, she'll rush after it give it a quick nip then ignore it, always returning to chew on one of her humans.

Son and I discussed a new game plan last night. Two "ouch" comments is all she gets, even if the bite is accidental. After that second bite, we get up and leave her playpen. After she's settled a bit, we pick her up and put her in her crate with a gentle, "kennel" comment. Or, if she's nipping as we are bringing her in from a potty, we calmly say "kennel" and put her gently into her crate. In other words, two hard nips and playtime ends, and is followed by quiet time.

Thankfully, she's very good in her crate, maybe a short whimper but no excess crying. I've learned that, in her situation, it's best NOT ignore her when she is shrieking in her kennel as it always means she needs to potty -- even if she'd just been out minutes before. We potty and then it's back in her crate where she is quite content to take a nap or just chill.
 

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I need to takes steps to get her more interested in her toys. Redirecting to them works only for a few seconds before she's back to biting skin. And during our playtime, if I roll a ball in front of her, she'll rush after it give it a quick nip then ignore it, always returning to chew on one of her humans.
What do you mean by "redirecting"? Are you merely presenting a toy for her to chew, on her own accord? Or are you continuously / constantly interacting?

The same goes for the ball thing too. If you're rolling it for her, well, it sort of 'dies' suddenly at the end of the trajectory doesn't it. So, not much fun in that case and unsurprising that she'll prefer to chew on items such as hands and feet that are 'alive', because they 'react'.

Have you considered a loooong braided polar fleece snake toy? You can easily make one yourself. Or a homemade flirt pole. Either of these will give you the opportunity to keep your hands out of harm's way, and greatly lessen the likelihood of having to issue a no or an ouch or whatever.

I'd also suggest using a general technique at least similar to what Susan is shown doing in the video from the negative marker thread. Interact. Basically, the toy becomes a "tooth-safe" extension of you.
 

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I agree with petpeeve. And I don't think, at the stage you're in, that redirecting is effective anymore. Don't get me wrong... I think redirecting is great in general. But if you are redirecting this much, and/or if it isn't working, you are lowering the value of toys at most (ex. trying to 'force' a puppy to play with the toy when she only wants to bite you), or you are reinforcing biting by teaching the puppy bite = I bring out a toy.

If I were you, I'd have the puppy drag a leash. When I step up to the pen, I'd reward calm behavior with food. I would invite the puppy out of the pen if calm. More training and play with treats. Offer a bite rag to tug as a reward. Play tug with bite rag. Other appropriate activities... then puppy back in pen.

If the puppy does not do one of three appropriate things: 1. calmly coexist, 2. self entertain with her toys, 3. engage with me in the way I want, back in the pen. No 'first bite, second bite' stuff. That is STILL reinforcing biting and is not clear communication (ex. dogs don't understand "when I count to three..." threats like kids do. And even so, kids also wait until you count to two and a half...).
 
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