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Discussion Starter #1
Hello everyone :) just registered to learn a few things about dog nutrition and food :)
my questions are..??

i have a grinder at my disposal...& i am forbidden to touch beef by my religion so i can touch pretty much any other meat food.... but chicken is a good main ingredient for me as its easily available and cheap too :)

so could you guys plz help me formulate a recipe for my 2 cocker spaniel :)

i have time on hand so i may prepare the food in batches :)
i would like to know.....all the details..what part of chicken to feed and how much..??
fat source..?? fiber source..?? vitamin source..??? calcium source..??probiotics.(donno what the hell these are ).?? well i recently saw a video on you tube in which the man was mixing raw meat(offal + muscle) and cooked veggies+rice+egg with shells and curd together and was making batches...ah...and what about the omega fats 3 and 6 i guess..!!?? and what about the essential amino acids..?? my dogs are on Royal canin cocker 25 and it mentions it has additional DHA..??? whats DHA and how can i add it to my home made food :) i guess this comes under barf diet ...or doest it not..??? lol sorry if i asked too many questions just curious and at the same time have too many doubts !!!! sorry but i am comparing the present diet to what RC Cocker 25 has on its ingredient list..!!! and is it true that a younger puppy and a older dogs needs are different and if so whats the difference in their diets ..??
 

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You don"t need a grinder unless your dogs are unable or unwilling to eat whole pieces of meat. You can make a whole diet out of chicken, but it's a good idea to add some red meat, too (lamb?). They can eat raw chicken bones (cooked bones are bad), so that will be the calcium source. Meat contains all essential amino acids and omega 6 fats (adding fish or fish oil for the omega 3s is a good idea) necessary for dogs. Chicken fat and chicken skin are the fat sources. Liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, etc. (the organs) are a rich source of vitamins. Basically, an entire chicken is a balanced diet for a dog. So, say you buy a whole chicken and give your dog 1/4 of the chicken every day, after 4 days he will have a balanced diet. Now, that's a bit of oversimplification, but that's the basic idea. You can also do a more complicated diet with grains and veggies and whatever you want, but that's mostly done for cost reasons.

Here's some reading:
http://www.rawfeddogs.net/ (haha, I just read the "recipes" on this site)
http://www.rawlearning.com/
http://rawfeddogs.org/
Note: I haven't looked at those sites thoroughly so I'm not endorsing them, I'm just linking to what I found.
 

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For starters feed 2% of your dogs' weight daily in meat/bone/organ. Veggies and such are extra. If you grind then take that whole chicken, bones and all, and grind away and feed 2% per dog per day, that comes to 8 ounces for a 25 pound dog. Once poop is fine then you would add in other meats and organs. If your dog gets fat then feed less, gets skinny feed more just like any other diet.

Bones are the perfect source of calcium. A diet with 10% bone has the perfect amount of calcium and phosphorus in it. A dressed whole chicken is just about 30% bone so feed about 1/3 bony chicken with 2/3 red meat and fish and organ.

You do not have to grind. Grinding increases the surface area which means any bacteria present have an easier time growing and also tends to destroy taurine, an amino acid some dogs need provided although dogs are supposed to be able to synthesize it on their own. Whole bone is fun for dogs to eat and helps scrape gunk off teeth.

Meat has all the essential amino acids and fatty acids as well. Feed lot animals fed lots of grain have less of the omega 3s but omega 6s are fine. If the chickens you get are free to peck where they will and eat bugs then they will have more omega 3 than chicken kept in a barn and fed grains and soy. DHA is one of the omega 3s is all. If you are concerned about it you can offer some fatty fish like mackerel, sardines and salmon or just include fish oil in the diet. Easy.

Feed a pup exactly what they will eat as an adult dog and done. That means a 4 pound pup that will grow to a 25 pound adult dog will eat 8 ounces of food a day same as when it is grown. Since the tummy is tiny you must offer a little food often. The reason there is puppy food is so the nutrients in that 8 ounces is reduced in bulk so it is easier to get it into the tiny tummy. Of course if the pup gets chubby, feed less and if the pup gets skinny, feed more - same as an adult dog.

Chicken is fine but it is lower in some minerals and vitamins than mammal meats like beef, pork, lamb, goat. If you can grind 2 pounds of bony chicken with 3.5 pounds of red meat plus 5 ounces of liver and 5 ounces of any other organ you can find like kidney, spleen, sweetbread, brain you have a very nice diet. If you are concerned about omega 3 then take away about 10 ounces of red meat and add about 10 ounces of sardine or mackerel or salmon or just feed fish oil.

Here are a couple of other sources of information on feeding fresh food to dogs.
http://www.b-naturals.com/index.php?main_page=newsletters
http://www.dogaware.com/diet/homemade.html
 

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Discussion Starter #4
then what about fiber source..??? and probiotics..??? and the main thing what about calories..?? because if we feed rich food the dogs tend will eat less amount and i wonder will they end up looking slim ..?? i basically dont like that slim look i prefer full figured dogs that are chubby :) to cuddle :)
 

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Hi there. SO you are going to go with a raw diet? That is great. Before doing it though, I recommend doing your research first. Ideally, you would want to feed chicken first in whole pieces. I would not suggest grinding it. Giving a dog whole parts of chicken helps them work their jaw muscles, keeps their teeth clean, and gives them mental stimulation. Dogs are meant by nature to gnaw.

I feed a prey model diet which means I do not feed my dogs vegetables or fruits (except as an occasional treat). There are also barf diets (bones and raw food) that do feed these things. So you need to decide which you want to do. I do add fish oil to my dog's diet to balance out the omega 3 to omega 6 ratio. Too much omega 6 is not good. So fish oil adds in omega 3's.

I would incorporate red meats into your dog's diet after it is transitioned to a raw diet and is used to eating raw chicken. There are red meats other than beef. It will depend on where you live as to what is available to you but you can feed pork, lamb, goat, bison, venison, etc.

2 to 3% of a dog's ideal body weight is what you feed a dog when it comes to raw. My mastiff is bordering 200 lbs. He is overweight. I do not feed 2% of 200 lbs. I feed 2% of 180 lbs. as that is where I would like him to be.

When you are feeding a puppy a raw diet, you can either feed them 10% of their current weight of 2-3% of their projected adult weight. Puppies need more calories and nutrients as they grow.

You also have to follow a ratio rule. When you feed a dog raw, 80% of what you feed should be meat (muscle) 10% should be bone and 10% should be organs (liver, kidneys, spleen). It doesn't have to be EXACT every single time but it should be around about those numbers. Many people just eyeball it. I still weigh everything out as much as I can.

Read some of those links provided as you decide which raw diet you want to feed and how to do it. I have just explained the very basics of it but you should be well armed with knowledge before doing this yourself. READ. An improperly fed raw diet can do a lot of damage just as a properly fed diet can do a world of good.
 

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You do not want a skinny dog and you do not want a chubby dog. Dogs that are overweight have much shorter lifespans. You want a dog at a healthy weight. If you want something to cuddle and your dog is not fat, cuddle a pillow. A dog's health should be more important, don't you agree?
 

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Chubby isn't healthy. Overweight dogs can have the same problems overweight humans can--diabetes, joint problems, heart problems, etc. But eating too many calories is the same whether they eat too many kibble calories or too many meat calories.

Dogs don't really need much fiber. Bone provides what they need. Probiotics are present in fermented foods like yogurt, kefir, etc. Or you can use a supplement. I know that plenty of people don't give their dogs (or themselves) probiotics, so they aren't strictly necessary. But are helpful to prevent tummy troubles.
 

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well yeas we dont want over weight dogs :) anyway yesterday i gave my dogs a raw mutton bone and saw them enjoy it. 2marrow i will introduce them to raw diet...ie 80% meat + 10% bones + 10% organs...well if i feed them 3% of their body weight ..my dogs are at 10kgs each so 3% of their weight means 300gms each that means 240gms meat with skin and 40gms bones (do chicken knuckles counts in this category..?? i can get these for free :)) and another 40gms organs i think i can get chicken liver,heart,kidneys(what else can i add in this department ?) and i may have to add omega fats since cockers are hairy dogs they need it for a healthy coats/skin i guess..???

too bad that i cannot add eggs or veggies or rice in their diet but this raw diet sounds pretty easy just buy then wash them and feed them that's it..lol..but will my dogs respond to it..?? oh well we will see 2marrow..now that i have decided on a diet plan..??? supplements people talk to me about this..???
 

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Start out by feeding only bony chicken. Raw is a low bulk, high protein and fat diet and most dogs come from a high bulk, low protein and fat diet. Chicken is higher in bone than is needed but that extra bone really helps the dog's gut get used to lower bulk. The skin on chicken is where nearly all the fat is, for the first couple days or so try to take most of it off. That way you are approximating a kibble diet in raw food at least in fat and bulk.

After the poop is fine on skinned chicken which can be 1 day or 1 week, start leaving on the skin. Once the bony chicken is okay get some other protein, you seem to have mutton at hand so buy that. Substitute a bite of the mutton for a bite of chicken meat and see how that goes. Keep the bone content the same, you are just offering a new meat.

Once the dogs can eat half chicken and half of several different types of meat then start with organs. Max adores organ but even a sliver can be very hard on a new to raw dog's gut. I figured out he needed 1/2 ounce of liver a day and cut my package into bits about that size and froze them on a cookie sheet and popped them into a bag for storage in the freezer. I took one of those bits and let it thaw so I could shave it into many very small bits. I put them on a sheet of plastic wrap, rolled it up and put it into the freezer. First day he got one bit, second day 2 bits. I introduced each organ exactly the same way and things went very smoothly.

It is normal for new to raw dogs to have yucky poop but adjust the following meal if it is off. Too much food or fat or organ will cause soft to liquid poop. Figure out what is the cause and feed a little less, take off fat and/or feed less organ. Too hard poop is generally caused by too much bone, feed a little less bone next time or none at all.

As for cuddling a pudgy dog, not my thing. I do enjoy cuddling Max more now because his fur is so much nicer. It used to be dry and sticky feeling and now is super silky and soft. Even his ears are no longer the least bit greasy and his eyes rarely have goo in the corners like they used to. He never had stinky breath or body odor and seems even fresher smelling now.

Probiotics may or may not help. They never seem to do anything for my dogs but some people see a need for the stuff. Sassy was on a super duper one that was supposed to treat her kidney disease but if I ran out I saw no difference in her poop at all.

Fiber is not needed. Bone firms up the poop.
 

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today i went to the butchers shop and bought 250gms of raw chicken of which 200gms was legs and thigh and some hearts and a pair of kunckles, sadly they were out of liver itseems and i got it all for 30 indian rupess ..then i started towards my house doubting how my dogs will react to their new meal...so i came home went in to their pen area and they already started smelling the meat package in my hand so i noticed their eagerness...so i teased them a little with the smell so that they will know its value and i placed the meat in a bowl and gave it to then and OMFG they devaoured it in like 5 mins...i know i feed them little 250gms for 2 dogs a lot less but hey i didnt want to risk it hence the small TEST...i could clearly hear the raw bones cracking in their mouth and then i realised WTF am i doing what happens if these bones Screw things up..???and a minute of silence and then seeing them licking the bowl clean i think i will repeat this again 2marrow but with some liver and less bone..i think i will not feed them any kibble for now i will try this raw feeding for a few days and see how things will turn out to be..!!!
 

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YAY! That is good news. If they get a little diarrhea, it is to be expected. Any major diet change takes some getting used to. Bones are good for them. Wild animals like foxes and wolves eat bones, why not a dog? They digest it very well. You may see some bone shards (pieces) in their poop. This is normal. Most of the time after a dog has fully transitioned, this goes away. Although, I do know some raw feeders that still see bone fragments on occasion. Just go slow, stick to chicken for now and let us know how it goes.

I have no idea the measurements you are talking about because I use pounds and ounces. Also, I don't know what you mean by chicken knuckles?
 

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Don't give them liver yet, keep feeding plain bony chicken until the poop is small, firm with no mucous. Give as big a piece as you can so they continue doing a good job of crunching it up.

A 10 kilo dog needs about 200 grams a day, you are feeding a very small amount if these are normal sized cocker spaniels. Feeding too much is likely to upset the digestive tract but too little means they might be too eager to eat and swallow the food before it has been sufficiently chomped.
 

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well actually i fed them 250gms in the morning it included chicken meat and bones,heart and knuckles... in evening i bought another 500gms this time i introduced the liver...the dogs ate it but left the liver..??!! i tried giving them liver with hand but still they refuse to eat it..????so today i gave my dogs a total of 750gms .... for 2 dogs, i know thats a little much but i will follow a strict diet from 2marrow..ie..3% of their adult body mass...80% leg & thigh ( it has bone in them ) ..10% bones(mostly knuckles not 10% i guess i just throw in a pair of kunckles i guess) and another 10% organs..but the stupid dogs are leaving the liver..?? any advices..??
 

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Put the liver in the freezer, it doesn't take much room. Some dogs are smart enough to know that it is too rich and will cause a tummy upset. In a couple weeks after the dogs are good with chicken and a couple of other types of meat you can try again.

Max adores liver as I have always made liver cookies and they got to clean the bowls and scrapes and it was always a big deal. You can sliver it and stick under the skin of the chicken until they figure out it is okay stuff. You could puree it and smear on the other meats. You could cook it with a little garlic as a treat. You can serve it frozen, sometimes the texture puts dogs off. You could simply pill it before they get the rest of their meal. However you start it again give very small amounts, not the amount you want them to eat. I started Max on about 10% of the amount I wanted to feed him daily. It was a sliver about the size of the handle of a teaspoon, maybe 2-3 grams of liver when he gets a total of 28 grams of organ daily.

We want to know, what are knuckles?
 

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I'm LOLing at the thought of chicken knuckles. . .
 

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Chicken knuckles..lol chicken hands..?? just google them you will understand..anywhere where i am from they are not eaten so they endup as waste but a few dogs owners feed them to their dogs anyway..cuz they are a good source of calcium i guess :)
 

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If I Google it, I get the Urban Dictionary definition of really poor-quality chicken, with crunchy, chewy, and spongy bits in it, something you're not even sure is chicken, LOL.

I guess you mean chicken feet? I know they're a good source of cartilage (which is good for joints), but I don't know about calcium. It would make sense, though, because feet are bony. Yep, I know they're good for dogs but I don't know how they count as far as muscle meat vs bone.
 

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Oooo, Max gets those. They are sold here as food for people. Cooked for chicken soup for one thing.

1.5 of the size we have here is exactly the amount of calcium Max needs each day so I give him one if he seems to need a bit more calcium. He often gets meals of chicken feet, organ and boneless red meat. I like feeding chicken feet because they are so small, have plenty of calcium and I can give him more red meat than if I gave him a chicken wing, organ and boneless meat.

If you are giving chicken legs and thighs and chicken feet then you are giving more calcium than required but at this stage of the game you do need more calcium for stool firming. They will come in very handy when you are ready to feed other proteins that don't have much edible bone in them. Max prefers not to eat much pork or lamb bone these days for instance so gets a chicken foot if needed.
 

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hmm today i again went to the butchers shop and bought legs,hearts and knuckles this time i asked him not to chop things in to bits... i didnt bother asking for liver because the liver from first day is still in the fridge i tried offering them that liver but no they wouldnt eat it..soo i need to throw it away anyway..today i plan on feeding them less like 250gms each as i want to feed them in alternate fashion like 250gms one day and the next day 300gms... even though my dogs are 11months old i guess since i am feeding a protein rich diet i will feed them only once per day...and another thing i didnt have any problem with the loose stools issue their first poop was just in greenish color and contained some undigested fat(chicken skin) that i remember adding in to their diet the first day...
 

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Raw is not protein rich, most raw meats are 14-22% protein. Not high at all. At 11 months old, feeding once a day should be ok. Typically the guideline is to not feed once a day until they are a year old. You can feed twice a day or once a day, whatever works best for you.

This is my favorite guide for getting started on raw.
http://www.kaossiberians.com/rawfeeding.html
 
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