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Please stop bullying me. Do the research and cite your references. If you don't want to, then don't. I'm just saying that you are making uninformed assumptions and I know that you are. Nothing I say to you is going to change your mind, evidently. Look at your tone. Do you want to learn something or do you just want to discount everyone with whom you disagree? I swear if my students took this sort of tone in our forums, they would get a big fat F.

Kindly use some manners.
Whose forum is this?
 

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I'm a school teacher. Students learn best doing their own research because they have something invested in it: TIME.

:)
Students also do better when they have a teacher with a good understanding of the subject matter who can guide them in their research and not lead them astray with poorly researched information. If you want to sound credible, cite your own sources for people to examine.

Here's a reasonable source of dog nutrition requirements: http://dels-old.nas.edu/banr/briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf

Dogs can survive on a vegetarian diet, HOWEVER, it requires sufficient protein, vitamins and minerals which is a difficult standard to reach without including animal-based food sources. Included in the article above are all the health problems that can crop up when a dog lacks an essential nutrient. Just because a human can survive on nothing but McDonald's burgers, it doesn't make it a healthy diet. Surviving on a vegetarian diet is not thriving on it or providing optimal nutrition.

Please stop bullying me. Do the research and cite your references. If you don't want to, then don't. I'm just saying that you are making uninformed assumptions and I know that you are. Nothing I say to you is going to change your mind, evidently. Look at your tone. Do you want to learn something or do you just want to discount everyone with whom you disagree? I swear if my students took this sort of tone in our forums, they would get a big fat F.

Kindly use some manners.
Whose forum is this?
You are taking their so-called "tone" as an insult and yet no one has done anything except repeatedly ask you to cite your sources. I've just provided a link to the National Academy of Sciences. This forum is for everyone by the way and I think taking your own advice might be recommended.
 

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Nothing I say to you is going to change your mind, evidently.
But you haven't said anything except "you're wrong" -- and no, that's not going to change my mind.

Generally on any discussion forum I've been on, etiquette is that if YOU make an assertion or argument, YOU are the one who does the research and cites your sources. You're not our teacher here, you're just another person in the discussion.
 

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Students also do better when they have a teacher with a good understanding of the subject matter who can guide them in their research and not lead them astray with poorly researched information. If you want to sound credible, cite your own sources for people to examine.

Here's a reasonable source of dog nutrition requirements: http://dels-old.nas.edu/banr/briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf

Dogs can survive on a vegetarian diet, HOWEVER, it requires sufficient protein, vitamins and minerals which is a difficult standard to reach without including animal-based food sources. Included in the article above are all the health problems that can crop up when a dog lacks an essential nutrient. Just because a human can survive on nothing but McDonald's burgers, it doesn't make it a healthy diet. Surviving on a vegetarian diet is not thriving on it or providing optimal nutrition.



You are taking their so-called "tone" as an insult and yet no one has done anything except repeatedly ask you to cite your sources. I've just provided a link to the National Academy of Sciences. This forum is for everyone by the way and I think taking your own advice might be recommended.
But you haven't said anything except "you're wrong" -- and no, that's not going to change my mind.

Generally on any discussion forum I've been on, etiquette is that if YOU make an assertion or argument, YOU are the one who does the research and cites your sources. You're not our teacher here, you're just another person in the discussion.
it has been said many times, we need a "like" button :)
 

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I'm a school teacher. Students learn best doing their own research because they have something invested in it: TIME.

:)

Teachers are also supposed to explain things to their students.

If students learn best doing their own research...why do we need teachers? To grade it?

And, as a teacher, I would think you could understand the point being made. Saying "I'm right, you're wrong." is not how you present a counter-argument or a case against something.

You're also implying that the person didn't do their research, which may not be true. So if she's finding research from erroneous sources, wouldn't you, as a teacher, not guide her to more proper sources?

Wouldn't you also do that for your students? Not just say, "You're wrong. F."

Besides, this is a discussion board, not your classrooms and we are not your students.
 

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Vegan/vegitarian diets are healthy for people because humans are OMNIVORES, dogs and cats are strict carnivores. There are more aminos that dogs and cats cannot produce for themselves.

If you wish to know where your pets food is from, feed raw and from the same meat sources you prefer, better yet, hunt and fish for them yourself so you know how they are killed and raised.
 

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People say the same about people - and they are wrong. Vegan diets are perfectly healthy for people. I can't speak for animals, and I wasn't speaking to that. I commend the Humane Society for attempting to address a major issue in the pet food market - that virtual all food options (even 'holistic' brands) are made with factory farmed meat.

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Dogs and cats are obviously carnivores. While I don't think vegan diets are particularly healthy for humans either (have read quite a bit that says they are difficult to do right) at least it is the human's choice. it is inhumane to try to force a carnivore to eat a vegetarian diet. If you have issues about feeding your pet a species appropriate diet, you might consider a bunny or a miniature horse as a more suitable pet than a dog or cat. As to commending the Humane Socity - H$U$'s only interest has always been the "bottom line" Marketing cheap cereal as an expensive food for dogs was a brilliant way to bilk the public and make more money to lobby to take away our rights to own animals.
 

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Please stop bullying me. Do the research and cite your references. If you don't want to, then don't. I'm just saying that you are making uninformed assumptions and I know that you are. Nothing I say to you is going to change your mind, evidently. Look at your tone. Do you want to learn something or do you just want to discount everyone with whom you disagree? I swear if my students took this sort of tone in our forums, they would get a big fat F.

Kindly use some manners.
Whose forum is this?
If were my childs teacher I'd do my best to have you fired. People have sited their resources, you still say they are wrong but have done nothing to 'correct' them or show alternative resources. Hopefully you don't teach students the way you're debating as you would be failing them AND you need to do a grammer check (you're using incomplete sentances).

As far as "who's" forum this is well I'm the moderator (principal) You have not been bullied, you're getting facts you don't agree with and are trying to play the teacher card against those who are Veterinarians, Nutritionists and DO Labratory studies for a living. Sorry, but your teaching credentials mean squat and YOUR tone is very condescening! We are adults here, not your students.

Now for some facts on feeding dogs and cats

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/feedcats.html

(by a well known Vegan) http://letthemeatmeat.com/post/344486917/interview-with-a-vegan-jed-gillen

http://messybeast.com/veggiecat.htm


And from http://hubpages.com/hub/Why-Cats-Should-not-Become-Vegetarian

At a closer look, a cat's digestive tract is particularly short when compared
to the digestive tract of omnivores in order to properly digest proteins and
fats found in meat. Cats require many essential nutrients in their bodies that
can only be found in meat. This is why turning a cat into a vegetarian is an
unacceptable practice.


The important nutrients found in meat that cats need in order to stay healthy
are as follows: arachidonic acid, vitamin A, vitamin B12, niacin, thiamine and
protein.


Protein in particular needs to be fed to cats on a daily bases, because cats
cannot store protein. They need at least 30% of protein a day as this is their
main source of energy, whereas humans and dogs use carbohydrates as their main
source of energy.





A diet lacking instead Taurine would cause eye problems that could
ultimately lead to blindness and serious heart related problems.





If a cat is forced to eat a vegetarian diet, it may likely crave meat and
look for sources of it elsewhere. This will translate into hunting mice and
birds if the cat is left to roam outdoors. Cats may also eat small bugs that are
trapped in the house.





Clearly, a cat's metabolism is not suited to be fed a vegetarian diet.
While there are pet food companies such as Wysong manufacturing vegetarian
diets for cats, they clearly claim that they are not nutritionally complete and
not meant to be used as a replacement for meat based diets rather in addition to
them
.





. If you are vegetarian and you love your cat, you must accept him/her for
who she is without trying to impose personal beliefs as this may cause your cat
to become nutritionally imbalanced and ultimately sick.
 

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I am a teacher, too, and I am insulted ot be lumped into a group with you. If I provide my students with information it is my job, as a professional, to back up what I say...I do not rest on the "well, I am the teacher so I am right" thing.

As far as doing research themselves, yep, students should do that. But we, as everyone has stated, are not your students. You come in, make a statement that is debatable and provide no support.

Sheesh. I guess since you threw out the "I'm a teacher" card we should all just take your word for it.

But, since you asked us to do some research, here you go:

Dogs Are Omnivores with an Undeniable Carnivorous Bias

From DNA studies, we know dogs evolved directly from the timber wolf somewhere around 15,000 years ago.

And, of course, it should come as no surprise… wolves are clearly carnivores.

So, by their very genetic pedigree, dogs also demonstrate similar and noticeable carnivorous traits. Their teeth, their digestive systems and their behavior clearly confirm this fact.

Now, to be fair… and more accurate… dogs must also be recognized for their significant omnivorous ability.

After all, they do have the ability to eat a remarkably diverse diet. But it’s wrong to ignore the fact their bodies are optimized for eating meat.

Dogs Don’t Grind… They Chop

For comparison, think about a typical herbivore. A dairy cow. Now, picture the way they “chew their cud”.

Cows chew widely from side-to-side. And they have broad, flat back teeth. And flat teeth are ideal for grinding grains and plant material into finer particles.

True omnivores (like humans) share this same combination of boxy back teeth and sideways grinding motion common to herbivores. Think of your own mouth and how you chew.

Dogs, on the other hand, don’t have flat teeth. Like all carnivores, they have narrow pointy back teeth.

Plus dogs can’t chew from side-to-side. Their jaws can only move in an up-and-down, chop-chop motion. It’s the perfect combination for cutting meat into smaller chunks.

Why Dogs Don’t Do Carbohydrates Very Well

Now, herbivores and omnivores usually have one powerful digestive weapon carnivores usually lack…

Salivary amylase.

Amylase is a special enzyme plant-eating animals produce in their saliva. It’s a critical enzyme needed to initiate the break down of starchy carbohydrates.

Before they enter the stomach.

Now, meat-eating animals also produce amylase. But the enzyme is produced further down the digestive tract (in the small intestine).

Without amylase, a carnivore’s carbohydrate digestion is decidedly more difficult.

Digestive Anatomy Reveals the Truth

Since they consume fewer but larger meals, carnivores have bigger stomachs than their grazing, plant-eating counterparts.

What’s more, meat-eating animals exhibit a higher concentration of stomach acid. This allows faster digestion of animal protein.

And the stronger acid kills the disease-causing bacteria abundant in decaying meat.

Plus…

Herbivores have a gastrointestinal tract that’s unusually long… sometimes exceeding ten times the animal’s body length. Longer systems like this are needed for consuming a plant-based diet.


Here is an article from ABC news from 2009: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/AmazingAnimals/story?id=7154396&page=1

Essentially states that a dog can be vegan, but it is not ideal. Vegetarian is more likely to do better (adding eggs, milk, etc.). Cats, however cannot be vegan.

And here is an article by an herbalist named Robert McDowell. Discusses the digetsive tract of a dog, etc: http://www.pgaa.com/canine/health/rmcddogdigestivesystem.html

Your turn.
 

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Nothing I say to you is going to change your mind
I'm sixty years old. I've had dogs since I was six. I've changed my mind about quite a lot of things since I joined this forum. Let me list a few.

1) I didn't like rottweilers. Not even a little. Now I think that the ones that I've known were just not representative of the breed.
2) Hybrid vigor: I know longer believe that mutts are automatically going to be more healthy than purebreds.
3) Dog food: I bought a bag of Science Diet, thinking it was a step up. After reading extensively the opinions on this forum, and exploring some of the links provided, I donated the unopened bag to the local shelter and bought a bag of Canidae. I've switched a couple of times since, then, and I make up my own mind, but I read labels a lot more carefully now.
4) The Dog Whisperer: I though Cesar was pretty much harmless entertainment, but now I understand that quite a few people take him seriously and actually try some of that stuff on their own dogs.
5) Very recently, I rethought my practice of letting my dogs ride around with their heads out the window. (We don't do that any more.)

So, yes, it's possible you could say something to compel me to further explore a dog's need for meat.

But, so far, you have not.
 

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Your thoughts are uninformed. Please do some research on this, as I believe you are wrong. In fact I know you are.
I'm a school teacher. Students learn best doing their own research because they have something invested in it: TIME.

:)
Please stop bullying me. Do the research and cite your references. If you don't want to, then don't. I'm just saying that you are making uninformed assumptions and I know that you are. Nothing I say to you is going to change your mind, evidently. Look at your tone. Do you want to learn something or do you just want to discount everyone with whom you disagree? I swear if my students took this sort of tone in our forums, they would get a big fat F.

Kindly use some manners.
Whose forum is this?
And seriously, take a LOOK at what you've written. There is NO information just 'I know better than you" with no back up.

If a student were to write the first statement on ANY subject they would get an "F", the second statement by a student might be equated to "I'm the Head Cheerleader so I'm right" and the third would be "Well the teacher's a bully because she gave me an "F" and used red ink to do it!

Frankly it looks like a third grader in a playground argument about cooties.
 

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Look in the mouth of a dog. Do you see those great big teeth that look like knives?

Look in the mouth of a horse. Do you see the broad flat teeth that look like stones?

Look in the mouth of a human. Do you see the teeth that look like knives, but also the ones farther back that look like stones?

One of these sets of teeth is well suited to slicing and ripping meat. One of these sets of teeth is well suited to crushing plant material. One of these sets of teeth is flexible between both.
 

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And I've learned sometimes old threads like this pop up on my user CP and I can't remember commenting them in the slightest, so sometimes I get to read an opinion of mine from a year or two ago that I totally don't believe anymore. Haven't read it in this thread yet, but it happens to me quite a bit.
 

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ROFL, even better, she found an old note from a couple years ago and started arguing with it! I'm locking this one down and letting it sink to the bottom where she snagged it from!
 
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