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How would a dog be different if it came from a back yard breeder instead

10K views 61 replies 23 participants last post by  spanielorbust 
#1 ·
of a good, reputable breeder? What exactly constitutes a back yard breeder? Are they dirty? Are the dogs bady kept?

I see the term used quite a bit and I think I may have an idea, but since I'm new to being a dog owner I'd rather ask and get a good answer, than keep guessing and be wrong.
 
#3 ·
Would there be any differences in the dogs? Say two dogs of the same breed, one bought from a reputable breeder, one bought from a back yard breeder, will there be any difference because of the quality of the breeder?
 
#8 ·
You know, I really don't use the terms puppymill or back yard breeder much. I think there is a wide range of breeder quality, and that frequently these terms are just used to lump a group of people into a category which may or may not be descriptive of their practices. That said, if I bought a puppy from someone who breeds the kind of dog I want (purpose bred - for show or sport) I expect them to know the pedigrees they are working with to avoid health and temperament issues, know what health tests are important for their breed (and do them) and be willing to support my ownership and efforts through the years with that dog. The purpose bred dog is more likely to meet the breed standard, have fewer health and temperament problems and have the ability to do the job I want done.
 
#4 ·
IMO, byb are the ones that, like said above, breed for money (generally...hey, it's an easy buck, right?....not), fun or the "oops" puppies.....the dogs are generally fairly well cared for, but not tested for health/genetic issues; puppies may or may not be handled alot and well socialized, etc......
but that's just my opinion.......
 
#5 · (Edited)
I like this chart, it's pretty good.


In talking about the quality of the dogs and not the other pitfalls of buying from a BYB.... In my opinion there is a large difference between dogs that come from a BYB and dogs that come from a reputable breeder. Dogs that come from a reputable breeder are more likely to be overall healthy, structurally correct, and have a stable temperament. Even BYBs who say that they are breeding "for good companions with sound temperaments" - I think it's all talk. I personally don't feel that the majority of BYBs actually know wnough about their dogs and the breeds to be able to correctly assess such a thing. Now, you can get a perfectly fine and healthy dog from a BYB that will be a great companion and die of old age... but your chances of getting that are smaller when the dog comes from a BYB.
 
#6 ·
If someone just breeds for fun it's hit or miss, depending on the dogs who are being used for breeding (i.e. how healthy they are, how sound their temperament is).

If someone breeds to just make money, you can be more sure that the person does not give a hoot about temperament and health of the dogs used.

Breeders who breed show or working dogs are more accountable with regard to the health of the dam and the sire and temperament issues will show in the ring or in trials; so these breeders are by far more interested in breeding healthy, well adjusted dogs. Of course they likely are also interested to do so to further the breed and not just to win trophies. So you are more likely to get a good pet.

That said, many mixed breeds which are all basically back yard bred (just without any person's input lol) are healthy dogs with lovely temperaments.
 
#7 ·
PatchworkRobot..that chart is very good and very informative. It breaks it down very well. And I like how it incorportes the "hobby breeder" as well. Years ago I used to pet sit for a hobby breeder. She bred Pomeranians and Yorkies. She called herself a hobby breeder. And she fit your chart to a "T". She was active in the Kennel Club, all her dogs were AKC registered. As for testing, I dont know about. But she ran a very very clean operation. And she only bred her poms and yorkies, the dams (females, right?) once a year. Anyway, she was small time, but I felt at home and comfy with her set up. When I went to look at my Pap puppy, I was not impressed. I pronounce papillon like pappy-yawn. She kept saying pappy-lawn. And when I would say it correctly, she would go "huh?" This was my first clue. Shouldnt you be able to pronounce the type of dog that you are breeding and selling??
 
#10 ·
Shouldn't you be able to pronounce the type of dog that you are breeding and selling??
I would assume that if you care about the breed, you'd know everything about it. Including how to pronounce the name correctly. I remember reading a thread about someone getting a breed called a Cane Corso, and there was a small dispute between what seemed like a responsible CC owner and an irresponsible one over how to pronounce the name correctly. So if the breeder can't pronounce Papillon correctly, that would throw up a red flag to me and I'd be allons-y my way out of there.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Dog Mammal Vertebrate Canidae Dog breed
Mammal Vertebrate Cat Carnivore Small to medium-sized cats
Dog Mammal Canidae Dog breed Carnivore


Yes I did get the pup. I fell in love with him. He had the personality that I wanted. And then I brought my 3 year old and my husband to meet him and the pup went crazy over my 3 year old. He crawled into his lap and was licking him and nuzzling him, then the pup fell asleep in my husband's arms. The pup sold us on himself. The breeder did not impress me, the pup did.

Here he is a couple of days ago. He's 5 months old now.
 
#16 ·
Yes I did get the pup. I fell in love with him. He had the personality that I wanted. And then I brought my 3 year old and my husband to meet him and the pup went crazy over my 3 year old. He crawled into his lap and was licking him and nuzzling him, then the pup fell asleep in my husband's arms. The pup sold us on himself. The breeder did not impress me, the pup did.
Correct me if I"m wrong... but is this the same dog that bit your 3 year old in the face? Because to me, biting a child does not say great personality and temperament.


Patchwork: great chart, hope you don't mind that I saved it.
I want to say thanks but the fact is that the chart isn't mine. I found it a while back and have it saved for situations like these.
 
#17 ·
Correct me if I"m wrong... but is this the same dog that bit your 3 year old in the face? Because to me, biting a child does not say great personality and temperament.
Yep, same dog. He also bit my nose this morning when he was excited and playing. It's not his fault that he bit us and it's not his personality or temperment that made him nip us. It's me and my erroneous training of him, which I am trying to undo. I started last night as soon as I got home. He is not allowed to bite any of us anymore, not even playing. When we were wrestling last night, I gave him his toys to chew on, instead of me. He adjusted just fine. His personality and temperment are still wonderful and perfect for our family. No one will convince me otherwise. I acknowledge that I have screwed up in training and playing with him simply out of ignorance. I am a new dog owner and what I "thought" was right, was not.

So, what are you saying..that my Papillon suddenly has a bad temperment and personality? Overnight he turned into a 6 pound Kujo? Should I lock him down with a 30 pound logging chain like I see them do with other vicious dogs??
 
#15 ·
Patchwork: great chart, hope you don't mind that I saved it. My very first dog, 25yrs ago, came from a true BYB. Second puppy came from a hobby breeder. Last two came from reputable breeders. To be honest, I'd get a pup from the same hobby breeder if she was still breeding. My Tucker had the best temperment of any sheltie I've ever met.
 
#22 ·
What I'm saying is that my dogs who come from reputable breeders who put thought into their breeding and also spend almost no time around kids would not put teeth on anybody, kids included, unless they were some how ridiculously provoked.

99% of the dogs that I"ve met who had biting issues came from bad breeders. When you talk about the odds they are better in your favor with a dog whose breeder put more thought into the breeding than, "They'll make cute puppies!"
 
#24 · (Edited)
Ok, that makes sense. But wouldnt socialization and proper training have more to do with that than the breeder? For example, I found a Pap puppy from an excellent breeder. I say excellent because she falls in the reputable breeder section of your chart. She started out breeding Italian Greyhounds, started her own line, Belcanto, and then got into Paps. She had a 16 week old who was too big at 10 pounds, for the show ring, for a pet adoption. He has champion bloodlines. His sire is a champ in the US and South America. He lives in South America now and is retired from showing. So this pup is genetically perfect and he would be showing except that he's too big. He sounds perfect, right? He has never, not once, been around a kid. He wouldnt even come near my son. He was great with me. A little hesitant with my hubs, but was scared of my son. That was not the dog for us. Even though he was almost perfect on paper, know what I mean? I would have been more afraid of him biting my son out of fear, than Dexter biting him for any other reason.
 
#25 ·
The chart provided is a good one! I've never seen it so consisely put all in one place before. I'm going to save it too!

In addition, a byb often has her females producing 2 or more litters/year. A reputable breeder using only lets her breed once a year, or even every other year. A byb usually doesn't care about (or even know about) passing on genetic defects. For example, I go over the edge when I see boxer pups advertised and the parents (if shown) are white. A reputable boxer breeder would NEVER breed a white boxer, b/c they often carry genetic problems. They also cannot show, b/c they don't meet breed standard.

A reputable breeder will carefully match up the stud and bitch to enhance the qualities of both of them. Using boxers again, a very flashy stud (lots of white) may be mated with a plainer bitch, to avoid having white pups, or pups with too much white on them (again, against breed standard). A byb could care less - money is their main goal.
 
#28 ·
Actually, I think I see. If I had bought a pap from a top notch breeder, one who was genetically sound. He may not have even wanted to have started the "play biting" that brought us here. Is that kind of what you are saying? That he would not have been 'predisposed' for lack of a better word, to play biting. But since the breeder I chose isnt such a great one, that I'm aware of, Dexter isnt as genetically "sound" as a better bred dog.

And since you cant pickup on my tone through the computer, I will tell you that I am not getting offended or upset. I know that the woman I got Dex from isnt a reputable breeder. I still got him and took the chance. I dont regret it. But I am genuinely curious about the difference, though, if it can even be measured, between dogs that come from different type breeders.

edit to add: how do you define a dog's temperament? Why do you think it's genetic?
 
#32 ·
Actually, I think I see. If I had bought a pap from a top notch breeder, one who was genetically sound. He may not have even wanted to have started the "play biting" that brought us here. Is that kind of what you are saying? That he would not have been 'predisposed' for lack of a better word, to play biting. But since the breeder I chose isnt such a great one, that I'm aware of, Dexter isnt as genetically "sound" as a better bred dog.


edit to add: how do you define a dog's temperament? Why do you think it's genetic?
Temperment is the dog's basic personality. It can often be modified to a degree by training/environment. Many puppies with very sound temperaments play bite. It's a developmental stage they go through. However some dogs are more likely to give reactive and fear bites, or bite when they don't like something. And that probably has to do with who the dog is on a very basic level (genetics).
You have a better chance of getting solid temperament from a breeder who makes that a priority. But that doesn't mean that a puppy who's NOT specificially bred for good temperament might not have a great one - just that it was more accident than intent.
 
#29 ·
Wouldn't a good breeder be working on early socialization throughout the time the pups are with them, long before they end up in the hands of their owners? Also, I have no idea about your dog, but if the breeder allowed him to be taken home before 8-10 weeks, that could also have contributed to the lack of bite inhibition he now exhibits.

I think temperament is mostly genetic, but can be altered through socialization (of lack of socialization/bad experiences). This would have to be true for one to expect your average husky to act differently than your average Maltese. ;p
 
#37 ·
Laurelin, for someone like me, who really doesnt know alot about breeding at al, or dogs for that matter (lol), the chart that Patchwork posted helps to break it down some for me and makes it a little easier to understand. Most of you all have been active with your dogs for at least 5 years, some way more, right? For me, it's been roughly 20 weeks. When I read a thread, I have to google alot of the info to even follow what you all are talking about.
 
#38 ·
The most bombproof dog temperament wise I've ever had (also a papillon) latched onto my dad's ear as a puppy and punctured it when he was 11 weeks old. It bled pretty bad. He was simply an overexctied/overaroused puppy who was still learning bite inhibition. My point is dogs with good temperaments can play bite and even cause damage. Doesn't mean they have a poor temperament.
 
#39 · (Edited)
I have a pure breed spanish water dog. Another woman in town also has a pure breed swd. We got them from different breeders. Both have "papers." They are registered and teir parents were genetically tested, their eyes tested, hips, etc. But our dogs were sold to us as pets. If they weren't fixed I could say to her, hey we have pure breed swd who's parents have been tested, lets mate them and we'll have a bunch of adorable pups to sell. At 2K a pup, and 10 pups a litter, we could walk away with 10K a piece, give great homes to cute pups, and still provide loving homes to our beloved pets. We wouldn't be bad people to do this.

BUT this is not what dog breeding is about. My dog was sold to me and spayed b/c she didn't meet the breed standard (ears way too big, low herding instinct, etc.). She's a gorgeous sweet great dog. And the fact of a low herding instinct makes her a great pet. But I wouldn't be improving the line. Her pups wouldn't be able to be shwon or good for herding. they'd just be great pets. And after a few generations of this, they wouldn't even be swd anymore--they'd be no good for herding and have physical characteristics outside of the breed standard. If this is what anybody wants, they can get a mixed breed from the pound. Plus, her parents were tested but I wouldn't be testing her. All I'd be able to say is that we are mating two pure breeds who should develop well as their parents were healthy. That doesn't improve the breed and isn't why ppl get pure breeds.
 
#40 ·
Denise, thank you. I didnt even realize that the dogs could start looking different from the breed standard. Wow. All of you really are a wealth of info to a newbie. lol

I posted a couple pics of Dexter on this thread. Do you guys still think he looks like a pap. He is 5 months old. He's 6.3 pounds. I dont think he looks anything like Laurelin's paps.
 
#41 ·
Imo, he falls within range of a papillon puppy and I see absolutely no reason to think he's not all pap. He looks much more papillon than many I have seen. Paps tend to go trhough some awkward stages where they lack coat and their head shape can go very long and unrefined as youngsters.

When I get home I will have to show you a picture of mia at that age. She was pretty naked looking too.
 
#42 · (Edited)
With all due respect .... being this is my honest to goodness real life opinion .... not saying I am correct ... but .....

Leeo came from a person who was breeding dogs without health testing ... way before I realized and was made aware of what my parents had purchased. One of those breeds that my dogs are a mix of ... is well known for having one of ... if not the worst pancreatic issues of dog breeds ... per my Vet.

It is true that any dog can have health issues and sometimes it ends up being bad luck when they become ill or die from a preventable disease if the health testing was done before a litter was even conceived. .... But now I will wonder forever "What If?" ....... and every time Leeo's Brother Blu Boy sneezes I will just be holding my breath!

Health testing is so much more than being responsible ....
 
#45 · (Edited)
Abbylynn that is not a fun position to be in.:(

My understanding is that there are no genetic tests for pancreatic issues - although I do believe I read about a study looking for a marker in Chows. A clear health test on the parents would give no indication of what they might carry. I know well a couple of lines of dogs in breeds where this issue has reared its ugly head and the breeders in those breeds flag it (some choose to keep very quiet about it) and continue as the mode of inheritance is unknown and it is influenced by multiple environmental factors as well. Abbylynn's issue might have happened even as a purebred from an outstanding breeder. This goes with a lot of ailments - epilepsy, kidney issues etc.

SOB
 
#43 ·
I didnt even realize that the dogs could start looking different from the breed standard. Wow.
That's weird, right? But genetic diversity provides all sorts of differences and mutations. The breed standards refer to physical characteristics, genetic traits, personality traits, abilities, etc. It's very specific. Not all dogs in a litter are going to be exactly the same. SWDs CANNOT be more than 2 colors. If a pup happens to be born with 3 colors, you don't destroy it but you don't breed it. It will still be a pure breed, but since it doesn't meet the breed standard or have titles to prove it, what's the point of breeding it when you can get a mixed breed instead.

Just b/c it's a pure-breed does not mean it meets the breed standard or is a good example of the breed. And the other dog would be selected by a good breeder to enhance each other's characteristics. so if my dog was on the bigger side, I wouldn't breed with another bigger dog or eventually we'd have st bernards instead of swd. That's why real breeders know the breed standard and have a breeding program to enhance the line and keep track of how the pups turn out through generations, as well as show and title dogs to prove it. It's also why nobody makes real money off of real breeding.
 
#48 ·
My neighbor just adopted a Cav from a rescue. He was taken from a BYB.

The rescue Cav has never - and I mean NEVER been outside of his cage until now. He does not know that he's supposed to pee and poop outside. He pees and poops where he's standing, because that's how he spent his first 3 years. When they took him out of the crate and put him on a leash for the first time, the Cav actually screamed. He had never been outside his cage and was terrified. He cowers when people come near him. He does not bark. He does not whine. He has no idea how to interact with humans.

This is what Backyard Breeders do to their dogs.

It will take years for this dog to become anywhere near normal.
 
#49 · (Edited)
My neighbor just adopted a Cav from a rescue. He was taken from a BYB.

The rescue Cav has never - and I mean NEVER been outside of his cage until now. He does not know that he's supposed to pee and poop outside. He pees and poops where he's standing, because that's how he spent his first 3 years. When they took him out of the crate and put him on a leash for the first time, the Cav actually screamed. He had never been outside his cage and was terrified. He cowers when people come near him. He does not bark. He does not whine. He has no idea how to interact with humans.

This is what Backyard Breeders do to their dogs.

It will take years for this dog to become anywhere near normal.
That depends. I've seen people who carefully raise dogs, carefully look at pedigrees before pairing their dogs, who show dogs - but - OMG - dare to breed some litters from untitled dogs - be called BYBs from some.

That is one reason I really despise the term. It means nothing as everyone has their own idea of what one is. I see regularly a huge range of breeders - great ones to awful ones - caught up with this term when someone wants to aim it at them.

The breeder of that cavalier was remiss in his care and substandard. I wouldn't put her/him in the same 'label' as those that might breed litters from untitled dogs. As Laurelin mentioned, there is a huge wide range of gray when it comes to who is considered 'ethical' and 'reputable'.

Many breeders that I know who are considered reputable by others . . . I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole myself. I'd rather support what I consider better breeding methods from those that aren't putting 15%+ COI litters on the ground generation after generation. I'd rather NOT support what they believe in.

That does not make me label them 'disreputable' or BYBs. That makes 'us' not a match with regard to me purchasing a pup as I disagree that they are bettering anything that way. Others would differ.

SOB
 
#51 ·
Except that the proceeds from the sale of some dogs go towards the production of more dogs that may or may not get a loving home. The purchase of a dog (or of anything really) is a vote for the actions of the person who produced it.
 
#58 ·
Just say pap-ee-on or pap-ee-ohn and everyone will know what you're talking about. Or just call them a pap. Continental toy spaniel also works too.

I occasionally have people really try to be French in their pronunciation and it amuses me more than anything else.
 
#62 ·
It is well known in the Cavalier world that the only breeder in Scotland, for a very long time, that was MRI-ing dogs (and therefore has generations of MRId dogs now) was a breeder that did not show. She had shown many years before this time and understood the standard and what she wanted to breed for.

So yes, this breeder lots would label a BYB (and she was called that as well) was head and tails above the rest.

SOB
 
#61 ·
I hate to be an advocate for them... BUT.... (not I would NOT do this again, tho cuz I would never be this lucky again lol) my heart dog Izze was technically a BYB dog; the breeder didn't show or title his dogs, they were ranch working dogs, but he only had the two parents (Izze's mom & dad) & the pups were born/raised in his house & they were from true working parents. He did all the things that a 'good' breeder should do for his pups; worming, get checks & the like, the only thing was he let them to at six weeks but I think if I had known better at the time & requested that she stay another couple of weeks he would have, but she wasn't any different due to that.
 
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