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Discussion Starter #1
of a good, reputable breeder? What exactly constitutes a back yard breeder? Are they dirty? Are the dogs bady kept?

I see the term used quite a bit and I think I may have an idea, but since I'm new to being a dog owner I'd rather ask and get a good answer, than keep guessing and be wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Would there be any differences in the dogs? Say two dogs of the same breed, one bought from a reputable breeder, one bought from a back yard breeder, will there be any difference because of the quality of the breeder?
 

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IMO, byb are the ones that, like said above, breed for money (generally...hey, it's an easy buck, right?....not), fun or the "oops" puppies.....the dogs are generally fairly well cared for, but not tested for health/genetic issues; puppies may or may not be handled alot and well socialized, etc......
but that's just my opinion.......
 

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I like this chart, it's pretty good.


In talking about the quality of the dogs and not the other pitfalls of buying from a BYB.... In my opinion there is a large difference between dogs that come from a BYB and dogs that come from a reputable breeder. Dogs that come from a reputable breeder are more likely to be overall healthy, structurally correct, and have a stable temperament. Even BYBs who say that they are breeding "for good companions with sound temperaments" - I think it's all talk. I personally don't feel that the majority of BYBs actually know wnough about their dogs and the breeds to be able to correctly assess such a thing. Now, you can get a perfectly fine and healthy dog from a BYB that will be a great companion and die of old age... but your chances of getting that are smaller when the dog comes from a BYB.
 

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If someone just breeds for fun it's hit or miss, depending on the dogs who are being used for breeding (i.e. how healthy they are, how sound their temperament is).

If someone breeds to just make money, you can be more sure that the person does not give a hoot about temperament and health of the dogs used.

Breeders who breed show or working dogs are more accountable with regard to the health of the dam and the sire and temperament issues will show in the ring or in trials; so these breeders are by far more interested in breeding healthy, well adjusted dogs. Of course they likely are also interested to do so to further the breed and not just to win trophies. So you are more likely to get a good pet.

That said, many mixed breeds which are all basically back yard bred (just without any person's input lol) are healthy dogs with lovely temperaments.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
PatchworkRobot..that chart is very good and very informative. It breaks it down very well. And I like how it incorportes the "hobby breeder" as well. Years ago I used to pet sit for a hobby breeder. She bred Pomeranians and Yorkies. She called herself a hobby breeder. And she fit your chart to a "T". She was active in the Kennel Club, all her dogs were AKC registered. As for testing, I dont know about. But she ran a very very clean operation. And she only bred her poms and yorkies, the dams (females, right?) once a year. Anyway, she was small time, but I felt at home and comfy with her set up. When I went to look at my Pap puppy, I was not impressed. I pronounce papillon like pappy-yawn. She kept saying pappy-lawn. And when I would say it correctly, she would go "huh?" This was my first clue. Shouldnt you be able to pronounce the type of dog that you are breeding and selling??
 

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Would there be any differences in the dogs? Say two dogs of the same breed, one bought from a reputable breeder, one bought from a back yard breeder, will there be any difference because of the quality of the breeder?
You know, I really don't use the terms puppymill or back yard breeder much. I think there is a wide range of breeder quality, and that frequently these terms are just used to lump a group of people into a category which may or may not be descriptive of their practices. That said, if I bought a puppy from someone who breeds the kind of dog I want (purpose bred - for show or sport) I expect them to know the pedigrees they are working with to avoid health and temperament issues, know what health tests are important for their breed (and do them) and be willing to support my ownership and efforts through the years with that dog. The purpose bred dog is more likely to meet the breed standard, have fewer health and temperament problems and have the ability to do the job I want done.
 

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. . . I think there is a wide range of breeder quality, and that frequently these terms are just used to lump a group of people into a category which may or may not be descriptive of their practices. . .
Couldn't agree more.

PatchworkRobot..that chart is very good and very informative. It breaks it down very well. And I like how it incorportes the "hobby breeder" as well. Years ago I used to pet sit for a hobby breeder. She bred Pomeranians and Yorkies. She called herself a hobby breeder. And she fit your chart to a "T". She was active in the Kennel Club, all her dogs were AKC registered. As for testing, I dont know about. But she ran a very very clean operation. And she only bred her poms and yorkies, the dams (females, right?) once a year. Anyway, she was small time, but I felt at home and comfy with her set up. When I went to look at my Pap puppy, I was not impressed. I pronounce papillon like pappy-yawn. She kept saying pappy-lawn. And when I would say it correctly, she would go "huh?" This was my first clue. Shouldnt you be able to pronounce the type of dog that you are breeding and selling??
What were you not impressed with? Was it just her favored (wrong) pronunciation of the breed or was there more? I'd be one to let that slide and not give it another thought or even remember it . . . chaulk it up to eccentricity.

Did you get the pup?

SOB
 

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Shouldn't you be able to pronounce the type of dog that you are breeding and selling??
I would assume that if you care about the breed, you'd know everything about it. Including how to pronounce the name correctly. I remember reading a thread about someone getting a breed called a Cane Corso, and there was a small dispute between what seemed like a responsible CC owner and an irresponsible one over how to pronounce the name correctly. So if the breeder can't pronounce Papillon correctly, that would throw up a red flag to me and I'd be allons-y my way out of there.
 

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Would there be any differences in the dogs? Say two dogs of the same breed, one bought from a reputable breeder, one bought from a back yard breeder, will there be any difference because of the quality of the breeder?
Maybe, maybe not. I may get some flack for this but I have not had any better luck health wise with dogs from a 'good' breeder versus mine that were from 'bybs'. My sheltie from a show/sport breeder was healthier than my other two from 'bybs' but his temperament was pretty bad. My papillons have all been from show breeders and have had fantastic temperaments but I'd be lying if I said all were healthy. We've run into the worst (and untestable as of now) genetic issues they can have as well as one case on luxating patellas. I think it's just bad luck in general since NAD is so incredibly rare. We hit the (bad) jackpot there.

I have noticed a big difference in the looks of papillons from show breeders versus those that are not putting much thought into them.

You know, I really don't use the terms puppymill or back yard breeder much. I think there is a wide range of breeder quality, and that frequently these terms are just used to lump a group of people into a category which may or may not be descriptive of their practices. That said, if I bought a puppy from someone who breeds the kind of dog I want (purpose bred - for show or sport) I expect them to know the pedigrees they are working with to avoid health and temperament issues, know what health tests are important for their breed (and do them) and be willing to support my ownership and efforts through the years with that dog. The purpose bred dog is more likely to meet the breed standard, have fewer health and temperament problems and have the ability to do the job I want done.
Definitely agree. I hate the term BYB in particular.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
006.jpg 010.jpg 005.jpg

Yes I did get the pup. I fell in love with him. He had the personality that I wanted. And then I brought my 3 year old and my husband to meet him and the pup went crazy over my 3 year old. He crawled into his lap and was licking him and nuzzling him, then the pup fell asleep in my husband's arms. The pup sold us on himself. The breeder did not impress me, the pup did.

Here he is a couple of days ago. He's 5 months old now.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
What were you not impressed with? Was it just her favored (wrong) pronunciation of the breed or was there more? I'd be one to let that slide and not give it another thought or even remember it . . . chaulk it up to eccentricity.

Did you get the pup?

SOB
When I spoke to her on the phone she told me that she had one male and two female puppies. I was most interested in the male and I told her this. When I got there, the male is the only puppy she let me see. She had him in a side room. Her kennels were in the basement. I asked if I could see the other puppies, she told me no, that I had told her I wanted a male. I did, but I wanted to see all the puppies and choose, know what I mean? So, I was not allowed to see the other puppies. I also asked if I could see the mother and father. She told me that no one goes into her kennels. I said that was fine. Could she bring them up so that I could see them, as I wanted to see what the pup would look like when fully grown, she told me no, that he would be 6-7 pounds and look like a pappy-lawn. I almost said sarcastically "what the hell is a pappy-lawn?" But I bit my tongue.

It was then that I just stopped talking to her. She was no help to me. And when I had a question about his ears standing, about 3 to 4 weeks after I got him, I left her a message and she never called me back.

The puppy impressed me. He looked good. He acted wonderfully with everyone, me, hubs and even our 3 year old. I knew I was taking a chance because the breeder did not give me a good impression, but the puppy did. I'm glad that I got him because so far he has been wonderful.
 

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Definitely agree. I hate the term BYB in particular.
What term would you prefer? Unethical breeders are unethical, it probably doesn't matter what they're called.

Honestly, the real difference to me is what they're doing to the dogs they have and dogs as a whole. Ethical breeders care for the health and well being of the dogs they own, the dogs they produce (for their lifetime) and dogs as a whole. They participate in rescue and place their puppies carefully to avoid adding to the shelter population.

Unethical breeders don't care. They don't care about the dogs they breed, they don't care what happens to the puppies they place and they don't care that they're adding to the shelters with every litter they produce.

If you give an unethical breeder money, it doesn't matter if the dog you got was great or bad. You gave money to an unethical breeder which encourages them to breed again, harming more dogs.
 

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Patchwork: great chart, hope you don't mind that I saved it. My very first dog, 25yrs ago, came from a true BYB. Second puppy came from a hobby breeder. Last two came from reputable breeders. To be honest, I'd get a pup from the same hobby breeder if she was still breeding. My Tucker had the best temperment of any sheltie I've ever met.
 

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Yes I did get the pup. I fell in love with him. He had the personality that I wanted. And then I brought my 3 year old and my husband to meet him and the pup went crazy over my 3 year old. He crawled into his lap and was licking him and nuzzling him, then the pup fell asleep in my husband's arms. The pup sold us on himself. The breeder did not impress me, the pup did.
Correct me if I"m wrong... but is this the same dog that bit your 3 year old in the face? Because to me, biting a child does not say great personality and temperament.


Patchwork: great chart, hope you don't mind that I saved it.
I want to say thanks but the fact is that the chart isn't mine. I found it a while back and have it saved for situations like these.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Correct me if I"m wrong... but is this the same dog that bit your 3 year old in the face? Because to me, biting a child does not say great personality and temperament.
Yep, same dog. He also bit my nose this morning when he was excited and playing. It's not his fault that he bit us and it's not his personality or temperment that made him nip us. It's me and my erroneous training of him, which I am trying to undo. I started last night as soon as I got home. He is not allowed to bite any of us anymore, not even playing. When we were wrestling last night, I gave him his toys to chew on, instead of me. He adjusted just fine. His personality and temperment are still wonderful and perfect for our family. No one will convince me otherwise. I acknowledge that I have screwed up in training and playing with him simply out of ignorance. I am a new dog owner and what I "thought" was right, was not.

So, what are you saying..that my Papillon suddenly has a bad temperment and personality? Overnight he turned into a 6 pound Kujo? Should I lock him down with a 30 pound logging chain like I see them do with other vicious dogs??
 
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