Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner

1 - 11 of 11 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Our dog Roxy is a beagle. We hired a trainer for 10 weeks when we first got her (she was 10 months old). The trainer told us to roll her on her back and hold her down when she does something we do not want.

She will take food out of our sons hands.
She jumps up on people
She has jumped up on the table to get food. She gets plenty of food. We feed her three times a day.
She jumps on this particular spot on the couch and I don't like her on the furniture. Specifically this particular furniture.
She knows comands, sit, stay, come, potty, outside, kennel and no. She will only sit stay or come if you give her a treat. Yesterday my husband came to the front door and I didn't want her to get out I said sit, she refused. I pushed her bottom down, she refused. She also refused for my husband too.

I think she knows she isn't supposed to do these things. I don't even have to say anything to her at all. If I catch her she will put her tail between her legs and roll herself. So I am not sure what the point of the rolling is. I know dogs don't have the metal capacity to comprehend some things but today I caught her on the couch. I just came to the bottom of the stairs, I did not say anything, I just looked at her, she started to come down off the couch. I walked over to her (not saying a word) and she rolled her self. I then I said no no no and go to your kennel and she did.

Should I put her in her kennel should I put her outside? Typically when we are all eating she is either in her crate/kennel or outside. If my son gets a snack on his own then she will try to take it from him so I have to put her outside before he runs screaming to me that she took it.

How do I disipline her so she isn't doing bad things?

Crystal
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,290 Posts
The trainer told you to do what?? That's horrible! That's not teaching the dog anything, that's just shy of abuse!

When she's doing something you don't want, "firmly", "sharply", and "harshly" say "NO!", clap your hands once, or like some other people say they've used, is get a spray bottle and squirt her once with water.

Show her after you discipline her what you want her to do, when you teach her to not take from your son's hands, lead her to a part of the room where her bones or treats are waiting for her... Something along those lines.

Others may have better and more effective suggestions.

I know with my dog, Donatello, has been beaten so severely in the past that it's taking him a long time to adjust to me... I'm having a hard time training him to "Stay" or to "Come" to me, he instantly thinks he's about to be beat, it's sad... Someone has truly ruined my dog's life, and I'm trying my best to bring him out of the shell he's been beaten into.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the reply.

I want to add that rolling her over on her back - it's not forceful nor do we cause her any pain. We were taught to roll her over on her back and hold her there for a few seconds and say No. She is not caused pain, she is not spanked she dosen't even wiggle to get loose. So abuse that seems a little harsh. We were told that dogs do not like it and that is why it's effective in training dogs.

We have tried the water spraying and she likes that. She just lets us spray her.

Even a forcefull NO NO isn't working either - this is how the trainer came about to teach us to roll her over.

We have given her treats and done positive reiforcement for learning the commands but we are at a loss of what to do when she does bad things. It's been not quite a year and nothing so far has worked.

Again thanks for your reply.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
434 Posts
Ok personally I wouldn't ever, ever roll a dog. It is something that dogs just don't do.
By offering the roll your dog is telling you she's submissive and not to hurt her. The tail tucked between her legs is a sign of fear with most dogs. I would go with being a little more...well positive. I rarely discipline my dogs and I have three.
For the taking food out of your son's hands-
http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/2522-doggy-zen.html
Jumping-
http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/17430-greeting-politely-door.html
On the furniture-
Give her a bed, and only give her treats when she's on it. That will become a very good place for her to be. You want her to want to be there, you don't want to force her. Throw a treat there at first, do this a few times, then when she goes onto the blanket, or touches it, toss a treat onto the bed or blanket. Once she understands this, then you can start not allowing her onto the couch. When she gets on it, redirect her to her bed and give her a treat there.
For the command thing, and I am going to sound funny- DON"T FORCE HER TO DO IT. You want her to want to do these things.
If you don't want to have her run out the door, lure her into a sit when the door opens and only give her a treat when it's open and she stays there. It's called situational training. The opening of the door becomes the cue to sit.

And no, she doesn't know she isn't supposed to do these things. Punishing a dog rarely works out that way. If you can administer a punishment within 3 seconds of it happening, maybe. Dog's have amazing mental compacity, they can learn very complex behaviors. What they don't understand is what we want them to do most of the time. Humans are very verbal animals, dogs are very body language based.
For the couch thing, when you walk down the stairs, if she gets off...THROW HER A PARTY! She knows you get mad and upset with her when she's there, but she got down.
Don't put her outside, don't kennel her, you want he rto learn, you don't want to impose these things on her.
This is the method I use to train my dogs, Clicker training. There are lots of people on this forum who use it, me included.
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/ocguide.htm
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/primer.htm
Just some links I thought might be helpful. You don't have to use a clicker, you can use a word like 'Yes' too. I hope you find this helpful, and...I hope Roxy likes these methods, if you try them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,977 Posts
It sounds like she needs to learn her commands in the context you would like - i.e. daily life. I would begin to teach her that sitting when asked leads to good things.

From the "she'll only sit and come for treats" we're you using treats to bait/lure the behavior? If so, the treat may have become part of the cue for those behaviors.

If I were to put her in position (like pushing her bottom down) I'd keep doing it until she's staying position on her own at that moment. For example, if she's refusing (i.e. resisting the push, or popping right back up), I'd keep doing it, even if it took 15 minutes. At least then, your touch on her rear can be a cue for her to sit. Not ideal, but better than nothing, especially if you want immediate control.

As far as the other situations:

Snatching food from hands - Try teaching the "leave it" command and do it with food in the hand first (instead of on the floor, etc). Teach her that by ignoring, or at least not going after the food, she has the chance to earn it.

Jumping - First, I would get her sit/down/off, etc commands down. Then re-direct her to one of those behaviors when she first sees someone she wants to jump up on. Then the other person can give her attention and interaction.

You can also try putting the jumping on cue. That's what I did for Wally. When he would jump without invitation, he got zero attention. Then when he's sitting or standing still, I'll cue him to jump and then give him all the rubs and scratches he can stand. Over time, he learned to sit or stand and wait to see if I want him to jump. If he tries an uninvited jump, I immediately end all interactions with him for 5 minutes, leaving the room if I must. For other people, he'll either do the same, or I can redirect him with one of his other commands, then "allow" the other person to interact with him.

Furniture - cue the dog off (usually the aptly named "off" command), and if she doesn't respond - remove her gently, but firmly.

Putting her in the kennel and totally ignoring her (and that means everyone) for a while can be effective. This is especially true if the kennel is somewhere more isolated, but at this point, it seems she knows what's wrong, but doesn't know what's right.

I also agree to stop the rolling - it's not working, evidently. No sense doing it. It's also not the best way because, as said earlier, it doesn't show her what she can do instead to be right.

Since she knows her commands, I would work on having her perform them in daily life situations. Instead of jumping on the couch, teach her to lie next to it instead. Have your son teach tell her to sit and reward her. Then he could tell her to sit if she tries to get his food.

As far as coming up on the table - again, teach her to lie next to it. If she doesn't remove her to her kennel and give her no attention at all. If she does lie down, give her a reward.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,761 Posts
She knows comands, sit, stay, come, potty, outside, kennel and no...How do I disipline her so she isn't doing bad things?
We have given her treats and done positive reiforcement for learning the commands but we are at a loss of what to do when she does bad things.
Sit = dog's butt hits ground.
Stay = dog remains in current position.
Come = dog moves towards guardian.
Potty = dog eliminates.
Outside = dog transitions over exterior threshold.
Kennel = dog enters crate.

All of these behaviors have a clear definition for what they mean, except for this one:

No = ? <=You're disciplining with a cue that means what? If you're wondering why your dog is confused, perhaps you should define what behavior you're looking for instead. In other words, train your dog what you want him to do in the context in which you want him to do it.

You're dog can't be bad if you haven't taught him what good is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,290 Posts
You're dog can't be bad if you haven't taught him what good is.
Very well put.

Just because you're not causing physical pain to your dog, doesn't mean it's not causing her emotional pain. Forcing her to roll over on her back, is terrible advice, and should be avoided. Forcing her to be submissive, is only making her fear you, she's submitting out of fear... Not good. Like I mentioned, it's just "shy of abuse", meaning it's close to abusing your dog; I wasn't saying you literately are abusing her.

I think what the others have added is really good. Keep reinforcing good behavior and stick with it, when you start slacking off, so will your dog; You have to be the one to keep up the training, regardless if it's tough, tiresome, or just a pain in the butt...

Teach your dog what you want her to do, instead of teaching everything you don't want her doing...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,075 Posts
The food issue is common with beagles. They are incredibly, more than any other breed I've ever fostered, attracted to food. And they will do ANYTHING to get to it. I had one foster beagle tear off a kitchen cabinet door to get to the bag of dog food while I walked to the mailbox! The only other issue I've had with beagles are that they are fantastic escape artists (they have scaled 6 foot fences and dug under 12" concrete footings) and should never be left off leash anywhere as they will follow their nose at all costs.

As far as training, I would seek out a local park or dog club basic obedience class. Ours only run about $75 for 8 weeks. And the trainers spend an awful lot of time working with individual problems while teaching the basics of obedience. More importantly, they have taught me how to GET obedience from my dogs by gentle reinforcement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,966 Posts
First of all, stop rolling your dog. It means nothing to her. People will tell you that dogs do it to each other, but they don't. Maybe in the wild they do, when they are threatening to kill another dog, but I'm not sure you want to inspire that kind of fear and lack of confidence in your pet. It doesn't help at all. Even the Monks of New Skete who originally theorized it have come out to say that it's since been disproven. The tail between legs and rolling is already a sign of fearfulness...and you want your dog to behave well because she wants to, not because she's too afraid of what will happen otherwise.

Read these stickies:
http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/6856-nilif-nothing-life-free.html
http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/2522-doggy-zen.html
and put them into effect immediately. You have a dog who is extremely food-motivated, just like my beagles, and that actually makes them easier to train, not harder. The above will help with the jumping on furniture, the stealing of food, the jumping on table.

As for her not working for free... go and read up on variable reinforcement schedules. Variable reinforcement schedules are basically about treating your dog for only some behaviours, and not others; the trick is in knowing how many correct behaviours to treat for and how many to not treat for. You can fade treats this way. If you've read about it and still have questions, try reading this post:
http://www.dogforums.com/posts/3-dog-training-forum/35069-training-chloe/363812-post10.html
or posting your questions on the forum.

All the best! Not all Beagles have to be food-obsessed, stubborn little things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,865 Posts
I can count on one hand the number of times my dogs have rolled for me. Actually, I can only think of two instances. The first time was when Blackie got into the trash and I went outside to get him out of it. The second was also with Chloe and that was when she was buggering Rose have to death. I said, "No" (in my growly voice of death) and stepped and leaned towards her. Again, she rolled herself. Both of those times, and ANY time my dog is being submissive towards me, I do not continue to scold them. The only thing this teaches them is that yelling uncle doesn't stop their arm from being twisted.

After a correction/interruption to stop them from doing whatever they are doing, I then redirect them to what I want them to be doing. I don't drag out the punishment or put them in timeout (unless it is something so bad that I put them away so I won't strangle them). In my opinion, that doesn't teach them anything. Dogs don't know what we want and they don't understand english. We need to show them.

Yesterday my husband came to the front door and I didn't want her to get out I said sit, she refused. I pushed her bottom down, she refused. She also refused for my husband too.
I'll take a page out of Brian Kilcommons book and say that if your dog doesn't listen to you, then it either can't preform the command or doesn't know it at all, or in that particular context. Chloe preforms a very good down command when we are in the house, but as soon as I take her out it becomes iffy. That isn't because she is stubborn and won't listen, it is because I haven't worked with her outside as often as I should and the context is new to her. Blackie used to have a push button sit, but as he has gotten older his responses have gotten slower or not at all. He isn't being stubborn, his hips just hurt. Rose is iffy about when and where she'll sit, but, again, I don't put that as her being stubborn...she just requires a motivation that I have yet to put my finger on.

Check out the links that Rosemaryninja posted, I think they will be helpful. All of my dogs have been on an NILIF "diet" before and I still use it to some extent. It helps keep their commmands fresh, responsive, and it also instills good manners by sheer habit.

Not all Beagles have to be food-obsessed, stubborn little things.
Perhaps not stubborn, but it might be going too far to say not food-obsessed. LOL :D I think that is why Beagles can be so trainable is because a little slice of hotdog is great motivation.
 
1 - 11 of 11 Posts
Top