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I don't agree with commercial breeding. For a few reasons, with that number of dogs, it is impossible to give them all of the attention, socialization, and excercise they need! Putting them out in a yard for an hour or two a day is not proper exercise in my opinion. As for the USDA inspecting with an "iron fist", I recently watched a documentary on pm and they raided a kennel that had just a few weeks earlier been inspected by the USDA, so so much for that. :rolleyes: Dogs are companion animals and they crave human interaction. It's not fair to lock them in a kennel all day. And with how many puppies they churn out do you really think they take the time or it's even possible for them to properly socialize every one of them? If you do it baffles me as to how, I understand that they have staff. I'm just saying the dog to people ratio doesn't provide time to fill every dogs individual needs.
 

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One word DISCUSTING!!! I think anyone who breeds a dog more than three times is well not a good person to be careful with my words!
So someone who breeds a chihuahua bitch four times and produces four puppies is an evil puppy miller, but someone who breeds a labrador 2 times and produces 24 puppies is inherently more responsible?

I would agree that in general, there is no reason to breed a bitch more than three times - if she hasn't produced somehting better to carry on with by then, she's probably not going to. But if she's an exceptional producer and in good condition? I can see doing four litters, or potentially even five, IF it is safe (as per repro vet) and not going to negatively impact her health.

It's a responsibility game - not a numbers game.
 

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FWIW, what Urban Beagles has said is NOT nonsense. It is a well thought out discussion of something and includes both fact based experience and opinions.

Anyone can disagree with those opinions.. Free Speech and the rest. To call anything so well written "nonsense" with 1st hand experience based facts as the underlying discussion bespeaks counter arguments made based on emotions and not facts.

The propoganda you see against farming 9including dog 'farming' from the Animal rights groups is often in the realm of ridiculous. I have to wonder where they get their footage (stills and videos). With the livestock farming images most of the time I would recognize some equipment that made me realize the images were over 30 years old.

I will also say that if you handle Large Numbers of animals attention to any individual tends to be an inversely proportional ratio. Numbers go up, individual attention goes down. If you are making real money or have real money, you can (of course) hire more help and keep that ratio more stable.
 

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Well Elana56, besides Carla, you are my most prestigious and favorite poster here on DF. So I am reluctant to disagree with you, But,

Mr UrbanBeagles, would do better if he would do breaks in his long responces like paragraphs. Basically there is quick money to be made and the less people you have working for you, the more your profit.. And breeding the hell out of the bitch, is ok, because once she cannot produce take her out back and shoot her, that what they do on farms to there dogs when they get too old, trust me on that one, why pay a vet! The only thing keeping her alive is making puppies.

Dogs are the only non-humans that prefers to be with humans, then there own kind! It is this one attribute that makes me cringe when I hear people like Mr UrbanBeagles promoting puppy mills. There is no way in hell that they socialize these dogs because there profits would go down slightl.

But you are right Mr Beagle has a right to his responce, as you do, and puppy mills will continue to be a lucrative fun thing for the human not the dogs!:mad:

What the puppy mills could do to expand there profits, is send the non producing dogs to Korea to be eaten.
 

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I was referring to the video, I always hurt at the thought of a female dogs only purpose in life is to sit in the confines of a small crate most her life, to produce pups so that the "owners" can pay there rent. Never let to properly heal and recover from one litter to the next. To never no they have a name and never experience a warm lap to snuggle on etc. Not talking about responsible/caring breeders.
 

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I'm kind of confused... Are all those dogs on the video "show quality" or able to "work" like their breed is supposed to? How can all those dogs be properly hand trained and touched and brushed and loved on EVERY SINGLE DAY? Even hiring helping hands, you'll need at the very least 40-50 people hired to handle the dogs every day.
 

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That is just so sad and horrible. I cannot beleive this is considered quality. They are raising these wonderful little beings as if they are objects, in a factory, like they have no personality, or feelings. It is disgusting.
 

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I'm kind of confused... Are all those dogs on the video "show quality" or able to "work" like their breed is supposed to? How can all those dogs be properly hand trained and touched and brushed and loved on EVERY SINGLE DAY? Even hiring helping hands, you'll need at the very least 40-50 people hired to handle the dogs every day.
I fully believe there are SOME commercial kennels that provide for all their dogs' physical needs adequately. Healthy dogs produce better, after all. Many mills actually make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, so they can afford staff and quality housing for the dogs.

However, I do NOT believe they can do anywhere near what I'd consider appropriate emotional and social care. It's simply impossible, when you have hundreds of dogs, to give them that. That is what I consider horrible about them no matter how warm and clean their cages or kennel runs are. No matter how comfortable the dogs may be, it's still a sterile, loveless existence. Even if every puppy mill was a 'Blue Ribbon Kennel', I'd still say they were an awful place to get a dog from.
 

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Even beyond providing a proper environment (which I actually believe is possible in a kennel environment with enough employees - but again, we're back to the not-making-money thing), commercial breeders are not responsible for the lifetime of their dogs. Good breeders will ALWAYS take their dogs back.
 

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If all puppy mills were like the one in the video, the overall welfare of dogs would be better then it is today.

On the other hand, without the images of the really horrible mills, there would be far less awareness of the existence of puppy mills and the plight of the dogs in them.

It's never simple.
 

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This is a little known fact but commercial breeders attend breeder education seminars on a regular basis and generally have a better knowledge of their profession than many hobby or show breeders .....
They certainly do know their business inside and out....however, I have seen their newsletters in the mail (I work at the Post Office), and most of the subjects in the newsletters are about how to cram a piece of rebar down the dogs' throats so they can't bark, how to kill puppies and retired breeders in such a way that the "AR nuts" can't find you out, and classified ads on the line of "6-year-old Malti-poo bitch for sale, debarked, blind in one eye and has a deformed leg but is still good for breeding, good mother with large litters, has had 10 litters and should be good for 10 more, hate to sell but I'm going into Chi-poos instead". Seriously. So, my question is, are those "education seminars" any better than the newsletters?
 

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The litters are bred for ourselves, everyone else has to take backseat, pet people are waaaay back on the list of priorities. And my pups have too much drive for some pet people so I really have a narow view of which pet home gets a pup. Most are turned down, despite many being good matches for a less drivey Beagle. ...
Well, this stinks...for me anyway LOL. Maybe one day you'll have a less drivey Beagle for Boone. Methinks Boone & a Beag would be a little bit of heaven!
 

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To watch that just makes me sick. Why don't we stick those idiot breeders and state officials in a tiny cage for the rest of their lives and see how they like it?
 

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I wanted to show a picture of my little precious girl, but unfortunately it is not yet in photobucket, It is a picture of me and her, supposed to be a serious picture, but instead shes showing me how she can touch her nose.

I mean they are so human like, how can they "Our dogs" be born in cages moved to other cages then if they are luckey find a home that will try to help them forget all those nightmares they were born into!:mad:

Will post the picture once I get it into P.B.
 

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I'd like to you to prove! If you can guarantee a healthy fit puppy comes out of Puppy Mill and it's butt is waggin greets .. Only human contact they get are grab by their throats, shoving a pipe down their throats to stop them from barking. I think USDA is bunch of shit IMO

Ah! Someone has been reading too much of the NoPuppyMills or the PMR site whose operator is actually a known hoarder.

I am NOT denyying there are not USDA and other breeders who are not neglecting and outright abusing their dogs. However, my point is that because one is a commercial breeder does not make them a dog abuser. I have been in commercial USDA licensed kennels and not only were the dogs not de barked they were actually very friendly. Another note, there was one kennel I visited similar to the one shown in the YouTube Video, but the two others had larger dogs and concrete kennel runs. All three had between 2-4 seperate exercise yards for the dogs plus sperate whelping sheds that led into spacious puppy yards. I am sorry, but USDA breeders are not all inherently these evil monsters they are made out to be. There are plenty I'd not do business with but I can say the same for other breeders as well.

Not believing all commercial breeders are monsters is not condoning animal abuse. I don't know how people make thse conclusions, but if you're going to stereotype commercial breeders as being such horrible, evil people, then by that line of thought, other sterotypes should be taken as blanket truth as well? So there are certain people of Race X that act in a certain way would you say that Race X was that way? Why do it to breeders, then? That is my point.

One word DISCUSTING!!! I think anyone who breeds a dog more than three times is well not a good person to be careful with my words!

Well then I must be an evil monster because my foundation bitch is on litter # five!!! Should I post my address so that you can bring a mob to my house with the torches and pitchforks?
BTW, I have 7 dogs currently in the breeding program. But I am just an evil puppy miller churning out those litters!!!

:::slapping myself on the wrist now::::: bad person. bad, bad person.

Mr UrbanBeagles, would do better if he would do breaks in his long responces like paragraphs. Basically there is quick money to be made and the less people you have working for you, the more your profit.. And breeding the hell out of the bitch, is ok, because once she cannot produce take her out back and shoot her, that what they do on farms to there dogs when they get too old, trust me on that one, why pay a vet! The only thing keeping her alive is making puppies.

Excuse the long winded posts, I can't help this, it's the writer in me that makes BS-ing a fine art form, lol :cool:

We ALL care if there are dogs in situations where they are likely to be abused. However, consider that the animal rights fraction that has largely put out the anti "puppy mill" campaign, views breeding as abuse. Not overbreeding - BREEDING. One litter, one pup, that's too much to them. As a breeder who is proud to have genetically sound, hardy dogs, I can tell you from experience that be that as it may, a bitch's heat cycle and ability to remain in whelp are fragile things. Puppies are fragile things. Even the slightest problem with feed can be the ruination of a healthy bitch's heat cycle. Puppies who are not cared for properly or who are born and nursing on a bitch who is in poor physical condition will not survive or will become chronically sickly. Pre natal nutrition/balance is as improtant to pups as it is to human babies. The picture being painted of all commercial breeders is that they feed garbage, don't handle their dogs, don't exercise their dogs, don't care about their dogs, etc. I am sure there are breeders of this description but just for practical reasons alone, this sort of operation would never work. I have seen my own bitch, an extremely healthy, well nourished one, get somewhat thin while nursing and WHAM! Slight deficiency + stress = lowered resistance & certain illness. She was hit with corona hard and came VERY close to dying. A young, healthy 3yo bitch on her first litter. If the commercail breeders were keeping their dogs in such bad shape as you claim, it would spell the end of their breeding program. Despite starting with healthy dogs, as I said, puppies are fragile and need the best of care to survive. Any breeder who refrains from feeding the best, handling the pups, and keeping the bitches mentally and physically fit will not have healthy pups, nor will they even have bitches who cycle in some cases.

Another point is that I have 7 breeding dog but don't bother with the Vet for 99% of the time, save for real emergencies. Commercial breeders don't either - maybe if the Vets coming out of Vet school were more breeder friendly and less AR minded we might be happy to spend the extra $, but Vets have done an excellent job at pushing breeders away. I would be happy to give you a pictoral example if you PM me.

You may also find it interesting that of the commercail breeders I know and respect, one feeds Canine Caviar, another feeds raw with some grains & vitamin supplements to her 50+ dogs, and many use pricy feeds such as Pro Plan and Royal Canin. I have NEVER met or spoken with a commercial breeder who fed junk. I was even admonished by one for using Puppy Chow :eek: She fed Nature's Recipe, I believe.

P.S. ~ I am Miss Urban Beagles, lol :D
 

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I just can't imagine that bad commercial breeders are as rare as you say. This rescue (I have been to visit a couple times and I completely respect them) has so many puppymill rescues who were in terrible shape when taken that I think it's far more common than we'd like to think. http://www.hua.org/dog-adoption1.html

If you click on any of the small purebreds' links, most of them have sorry stories and sometimes "before" pictures. And somehow the females manage to produce enough to keep the puppymills in business. Like little Hope here: http://www.hua.org/Dogs-For-Adoption/Hope.html
 

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They certainly do know their business inside and out....however, I have seen their newsletters in the mail (I work at the Post Office), and most of the subjects in the newsletters are about how to cram a piece of rebar down the dogs' throats so they can't bark, how to kill puppies and retired breeders in such a way that the "AR nuts" can't find you out, and classified ads on the line of "6-year-old Malti-poo bitch for sale, debarked, blind in one eye and has a deformed leg but is still good for breeding, good mother with large litters, has had 10 litters and should be good for 10 more, hate to sell but I'm going into Chi-poos instead". Seriously. So, my question is, are those "education seminars" any better than the newsletters?


If by some chance that advert was true, then the person is a ****bag. They are not a commercial breeder, they are a disreputable breeder. Even they hybrid breeders are breeding F-1s, and not poo mixes. So the person either did not know what they were doing or was, as I said, a piece of dirt. It's ludicris to say, though, that you have one piece of human carp so ALL commercial breeders are this way. The one dog I've bought who was in the absolute worst condition I ever got a dog in was from a professional exhibitor. She was 4yrs before she had her first litter but this person was inexcusably clueless in the husbandry of her dogs. As I have mentioned, I have been looking @ kennel property for a while - most were state licensed or hobby facilities but a handful were USDA. I did not see even one bitch in the condition that rivaled the dog I acquired from the professional handler. I don't care if the dogs from the commercial breeders had more litters than the one from the handler, the real test of husbandry and health of the dog was the condition they were in.

What commercial breeder publications have you seen? There is one magazine in particular that I know of, plus several other smaller publications to certain state breeder orgs. I have been on forums and adverts for commercial breeders and NEVER saw anything of this sort. I have seen dogs I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, but again, could say the same thing about some show breeders.

As to the education seminars, they are generally to educate breeders on correct structure, husbandry, disease prevention, nutrition, and most importantly, genetics. Guest speakers are normally repro Vets. Think a few had the whwlp wise people there ... you get the point. It's not a place to advert a 3 legged maltese but to learn how to better themselves as breeders. Show breeders have been known to go on a rare occasion, as well :)

Well, this stinks...for me anyway LOL. Maybe one day you'll have a less drivey Beagle for Boone. Methinks Boone & a Beag would be a little bit of heaven!

Marie, for YOU I'd make an exception, LOL!!! What could be better than a PBGV and a Beagle AROOOOOing their heads off together!? :D But alas, for Miss Heidi's last litter, the poor pet people are going to have to wait it out ... They are not happy about it, either, haha! This is definitely going to be the best litter ever bred here <G> Might even get me some red & white puppers!!!I can't resist a SQUEEEEEEE!!!!!!
 

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What commercial breeder publications have you seen? There is one magazine in particular that I know of, plus several other smaller publications to certain state breeder orgs.
Eh, nothing professional, some Xeroxed newsletter, looked like the church newsletters. I think it was called "Commercial breeder's monthly" or something similar. I haven't seen it in awhile, so either the newsletter stopped publication or the person who got it cancelled it (not a breeder, as far as I know).

Another local story: http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=11020202
 

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Never heard of it. And they are distributed in magazine form, not like church bulletins. So it was definitely a rogue advert, and not something that represented the industry.

There are professional ones out there that wold NEVER publish those sorts of disgusting practices. There is one nationally distributed kennel magazine I have in mind that has featured some kennels I am drooling over! They don't advertise often, some don't at all, especially the local ones distributed to state breeder associations. I have seen hundreds of commercially bred dogs advertised for sale including seen and got a hands on look at a few bought thru brokers. Never saw anything like what you mention. And if I did see this cropping up, I'd be the first to get out the tar and feathers. Breeders don't need the bad ones bungling things for the entire group. I have never, however, seen a 3 legged blind dog for sale except for in the pages of sites like no puppy mills.com .........
 
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