Hi! First time dog owner--service dog issues

677 Views 10 Replies 4 Participants Last post by Willowy, Oct 7, 2016

enzothepuppy

Discussion Starter · Oct 7, 2016

I was lucky enough to get Enzo about a year ago.

He's great, but has had an adjustment from a rural/outdoor life to an urban/indoor life. He's a comfort animal (I am on disability for agoraphobia/panic attacks/bipolar), and is great that way.

Very high energy, bad separation anxiety, a few medical problems (luxating patella, skin allergies, UTIs), but a lot of training has helped significantly.

Am currently trying to address the issue of using him as a service dog, but the main question is "what is his skill." He is more than just a comfort animal. But he is also a pet and a companion.

Because of my disability, sometimes I cannot leave the house without him, meaning I can go for days without one or more of my eight medications. He gets me out of the house, just because I feel more secure with him. He's also an incredibly adorable dog (won two little dog shows), and literally every other person starts beaming or strikes up a convo when I have him.

I need him to be a service dog. I went to law school and studied the ADA extensively. The def of a service dog is very, very broad, as anyone familiar with the statute knows. I am definitely disabled. The question is what is his "service." It isn't behavior--if anything, he is more rambunctious and impatient than most dogs, despite continued training (without treats). But can his very existence, and innate "cuteness" be a service?

My doctor has strongly pushed for me to utilize him as a service dog, wrote a letter to the effect that he is, etc. And given the broad nature of he ADA mandate, I am currently using him as such. But the other day I was subjected to a screaming tirade by a man (probably with severe mental problems) who said he had a right to know what his skill was, he hates people like me who abuse the system, etc. etc. I fled in tears. I feel the same way in a lot of respects, but he enables me to leave the house. It is just a difference of an "action" as skill versus "state" as skill. Again, the ADA defines things very broadly, but I still feel guilty about this.

Anyway, exploring this a bit, and wanted to sign in and get more dog info. Love this forum--was previously registered but not able to sign back in under previous profile.

Feel free to give feedback on the above if you'd like. Would like to hear different views.

Thanks all!

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Rock knocker

· #2 · Oct 7, 2016

enzothepuppy said:
I went to law school and studied the ADA extensively. The def of a service dog is very, very broad, as anyone familiar with the statute knows. I am definitely disabled. The question is what is his "service." It isn't behavior--if anything, he is more rambunctious and impatient than most dogs, despite continued training (without treats). But can his very existence, and innate "cuteness" be a service?

My doctor has strongly pushed for me to utilize him as a service dog, wrote a letter to the effect that he is, etc. And given the broad nature of he ADA mandate, I am currently using him as such. But the other day I was subjected to a screaming tirade by a man (probably with severe mental problems) who said he had a right to know what his skill was,

What the ADA does in fact say

Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities.

I wouldn't say that the ADA was vague, and I have to also say that I don't think your dog does sound like a bona fide service dog.

That is not to say that he is not great comfort to you, and a valuable little creature, but not a service dog as per the ADA

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

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Rock knocker

· #3 · Oct 7, 2016

Staff is limited to what they can ask. Private individuals can grill you as much as they want baring harassment laws

When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.

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enzothepuppy

Discussion Starter · #4 · Oct 7, 2016

Rock knocker said:
Staff is limited to what they can ask. Private individuals can grill you as much as they want baring harassment laws

Of course they can, but it was obnoxious, unnecessary, and upsetting, especially given the nature of my disability. Don't you understand that and have some empathy for that?

I guess my point is that I know the law, and I need to figure out how to construe the law and/or train him to make him a service dog.

Thanks again for your feedback.

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enzothepuppy

Discussion Starter · #5 · Oct 7, 2016

Rock knocker said:
What the ADA does in fact say

I wouldn't say that the ADA was vague, and I have to also say that I don't think your dog does sound like a bona fide service dog.

That is not to say that he is not great comfort to you, and a valuable little creature, but not a service dog as per the ADA

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

You're right--I should have said "broad."

"Perform tasks" is broad in the sense of statutory interpretation--parsing the language of the statute per a set structure of canons handed down through the English common law. Generally, if it meets the intent of the legislature, it is interpreted broadly. In fact, the introduction to the ADA stresses that that a broad interpretation is essential (at least in some contexts)(see https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/29/part-1630/appendix-lii10).

So "performing a task" (being (a verb) cute) and interacting with people to allow a disabled person to act independently to perform vital tasks (getting medication and leaving the house), could be construed to be sufficient.

On the other hand, the subclause "individually trained to do" implies an activity rather than a state. I have trained him to be social--I always ask people to give him a treat when they say how cute he is, etc., but you are entirely right that he isn't a service dog in the narrow sense, and that the statute isn't vague, per se, like the 2nd Amendment.

I need to do some more reading and consider this. Thanks for your feedback.

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parus

· #6 · Oct 7, 2016 (Edited)

First of all, that guy was a d-bag and totally out of line. Also, I'm glad your pup is helping your live a fuller and happier life.

I think the thing is, when it comes to "what's a service dog," is that the criteria need to be such that they can be reasonable when applied to everyone everywhere in the country. I'm sure you and Enzo in particular aren't causing anyone any trouble, but if rambunctious off-task dogs were allowed in all businesses, public places, etc., you gotta admit, it'd be nuts. Service dogs really do need to be well-trained and they need to be "on the job" when they're in those restricted spaces. I mean, even if we're limiting the question of the impact of playing fast-and-loose with the term "service dog" to other people with disabilities, let's say I'm blind and I'm using a qualified seeing eye dog...we shouldn't risk being mobbed by someone else's poorly controlled pooch while I'm trying to grocery shop, right? That could seriously affect my mobility and independence.

Is there a service dog training organization in your region? You might contact them about how to go about shaping Enzo into a suitable candidate, and into what helpful skills it's common for dogs his size to learn.

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Rock knocker

· #7 · Oct 7, 2016 (Edited)

enzothepuppy said:
Of course they can, but it was obnoxious, unnecessary, and upsetting, especially given the nature of my disability. Don't you understand that and have some empathy for that?

I'm sure it was, why don't you think I have empathy for you? You asked a question about a service dog, and I gave you an answer.

enzothepuppy said:
I guess my point is that I know the law, and I need to figure out how to construe the law and/or train him to make him a service dog.

I'm not so sure that you do in fact know the law, sorry.

What specific tasks could the dog do for you? Baring that, he will remain a comfort animal.

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enzothepuppy

Discussion Starter · #8 · Oct 7, 2016

parus said:
First of all, that guy was a d-bag and totally out of line. Also, I'm glad your pup is helping your live a fuller and happier life.

I think the thing is, when it comes to "what's a service dog," is that the criteria need to be such that they can be reasonable when applied to everyone everywhere in the country. I'm sure you and Enzo in particular aren't causing anyone any trouble, but if rambunctious off-task dogs were allowed in all businesses, public places, etc., you gotta admit, it'd be nuts. Service dogs really do need to be well-trained and they need to be "on the job" when they're in those restricted spaces. I mean, even if we're limiting the question of the impact of playing fast-and-loose with the term "service dog" to other people with disabilities, let's say I'm blind and I'm using a qualified seeing eye dog...we shouldn't risk being mobbed by someone else's poorly controlled pooch while I'm trying to grocery shop, right? That could seriously affect my mobility and independence.

Is there a service dog training organization in your region? You might contact them about how to go about shaping Enzo into a suitable candidate, and into what helpful skills it's common for dogs his size to learn.

Thank you for your empathy!!! It is a touchy subject for everyone, I know. The guy had no cause--Enzo was just sitting there--he just said he wasn't wearing any id (which we know is not indicative of any service capacity, and even if it were, can be bought offline for $40).

I absolutely agree with you. My best friend works at a university library, and he says at least once a month someone brings in an obviously poorly trained dog; once one pooped on the floor and another time one actually bit someone. It has gotten ridiculous.

I think your advice is great. I have been meaning to contact Disability Rights Oregon (legal advocacy group here) to see if they can refer me to someone. The problem I have run up against in trying to find resources online is that they're cost prohibitive (I'm on SSDI) unless you fall into a given category (vet w/ PTSD, blind, something else) or require you to accept a pre-trained dog, etc. Some people are downright rabid about protecting what they perceive to be a very narrow function for dogs assisting the disabled--probably because of the reason you're citing--that it makes it very difficult for others with disabilities to justify their need for a service dog.

I think what I really need to do is research the law thoroughly to find if there are any cases on point AND contact experts in training to see what they would suggest, as you say. Like I said, this falls in a gray area, and without reading more and finding more that points to a definitive finding that I shouldn't do other, I will say that the language in the ADA is meant to be construed broadly and that this particular clause is vague (in the legal sense--I think I misspoke above when I apologized and said it is broad; it's just not particularly defining, i.e., vague).

Thanks again for your kindness.

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enzothepuppy

Discussion Starter · #9 · Oct 7, 2016 (Edited)

Rock knocker said:
I'm sure it was, why don't you think I have empathy for you? You asked a question about a service dog, and I gave you an answer.

I'm not so sure that you do in fact know the law, sorry.

What specific tasks could the do for you? Baring that, he will remain a comfort animal.

Please re-read my initial post. I didn't ask any questions, I did say feedback would be great. Thanks for your feedback, but I definitely didn't ask a question to which your answer regarding that idiot would've been on point.

I do in fact know quite a bit about disability law. I specialized in equal employment law (received a certificate in it) at one of the top three law schools for employment law and worked as a paralegal in EEOC matters for eight years before that.

I think you should re-read my explanation of why it is vague pursuant to the law. It isn't an issue of what task, it is an issue of the definition of a task. That is something I need to study more (see discussion below).

I appreciate that you responded to the post, though, I do. And I appreciate that you have a viewpoint. But please understand that I'm not uninformed--just the opposite; nor do I need basic pointers on the ADA or the role of service dogs.

Thanks.

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parus

· #10 · Oct 7, 2016 (Edited)

enzothepuppy said:
I think your advice is great. I have been meaning to contact Disability Rights Oregon (legal advocacy group here) to see if they can refer me to someone.

Sounds like a good idea - a lot of these groups and individual trainers don't have a big online presence, relying on referrals instead.

I think what I really need to do is research the law thoroughly to find if there are any cases on point AND contact experts in training to see what they would suggest, as you say. Like I said, this falls in a gray area, and without reading more and finding more that points to a definitive finding that I shouldn't do other, I will say that the language in the ADA is meant to be construed broadly and that this particular clause is vague (in the legal sense--I think I misspoke above when I apologized and said it is broad; it's just not particularly defining, i.e., vague).

I'm not a lawyer, but this does touch tangentially on my work, so I'm fairly certain that while what service the dog may provide is deliberately vague, the need to actively provide a trained disability-related service is clearly established. Active calming can be considered a service - like, I know of a service dog that applies therapeutic pressure to a child with autism when the child begins to melt down - but it has to be a trained action done on command or in response to a trained trigger, if I understand correctly. But I expect Disability Rights Oregon could provide a more decisive or thorough explanation of how this might apply in your situation.

Thanks again for your kindness.

No prob, welcome to the forum.

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Willowy

· #11 · Oct 7, 2016

Some trained tasks for psychiatric service dogs are: alert to episode, guide handler to safe place, apply pressure therapy, remind about/fetch medications, remind about routine/schedule, find items, wake handler, interrupt repetitive/obsessive behavior.

There are quite a few websites with suggestions on what to train them to do, I'm not sure which ones are considered reputable so I won't link to any, but those are some ideas at least.

And, yeah, what a jerk that guy was. Even if you have to tell a store employee that your dog is trained to do tasks to assist you, it's a pretty major invasion of privacy for some rando to demand to know the nature of your medical issues :/.

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