[Benchan1]

Hi all, first of all. Thanks for all active posters here. The level of depth of the replies in many topics are impressive.

I have had lots of reading online and asking in respective breed FB pages these days. And currently stuck in no suitable breed seem suitable for our next dog.

so, we have had our toy poodle (9kg) for some time. He is perfect in our family in all ways. He is trained well and always have compliment from all visitors on how amazing and gentle he behaved (even with visiting dogs). He always confident and calm. We are so proud of him.

we like dogs with minimal shedding. My wife nose won’t approve it. Nothing serious but she will keep sneezing. So we wanna avoid. And that why we had poodle.

now we are set to add another dog. Ideally something bigger than toy poodle but not huge as we have two toddlers. With lots of research online on the hypoallergenic breeds and online photo to see which dogs we like, we shortlisted to:
1. Kerry blue terrier
2. Welsh terrier
3. Schnauzer (not on the top rank of our list as it is too common from where I come from)
4. Irish terrier
5. Fox terrier
6. Soft coated wheaten terrier
7. Norwich terrier
9. Portuguese water dog
(We love the look of Airedale but worry about the size)

i think the list above is basically those low shedding dog whose have the look and size we like. However, as you can see, most of them are terrier (esp for the ones we like most, ie welshie, foxy, KBT). We were so excited that we were set on the breed. However, when we talked to the owners in the breed page, we got quite a bit of comment on terrier’s stubbornness, prey motive, independent, strong willed, never can walk off leash etc. And I think if I can never let my dog walk off leash even in a big park, that’s will be a shame. So, as a responsible owner, I think we should research more before pulling the trigger.

so my confusion really is, if all these breed are so difficult to work with, why the hell there are so many happy owners in the FB pages. Is it the case that they are trying to be responsible to avoid new owners giving up their dogs and try to exaggerate things to test my determination? But they also said, if you are committed to training, they are perfect dog. Can I have some feedback here to see whether any of the above is most suitable to my situation? I didn’t have formal training on dog training, but I read a lot and was able to establish a pack order at home. But I know that poodle is so trainable so I am asking for feedback here.

if it is not advisable to get any of the above? Do you have any other suggestion? I was thinking to get a standard poodle as I know they are totally different breed to toy poodle. But I really want some some variety.
Thanks all!

 

[storyist]

Take a good look at the descriptions of temperament and energy level of some of those breeds you listed on a reputable site like AKC.org. It seem to me if your poodle was perfect and you want bigger, the next size poodle would be the obvious choice. For variety get a different color.

P.S. I know it's hard - I'm facing the same thing with a puppy myself, but try not to judge the youngster you get against what the previous dog was like as an adult.

 

[LeoRose]

Terriers are a whole 'nother ball game from Poodles. They tend to be scrappy, and extremely mouthy and bitey as puppies. The owners you've talked to are probably happy because the terrier personality fits what they want in a dog. On the other hand, I would probably be miserable with your average terrier because their independence, strong will, prey drive, etc. are things that drive be nuts.

 

[storyist]

I wasn't going to be as blunt as LeoRose, but yes, there's a reason a lot of dog people refer to terriers as terrorists.

 

[Benchan1]

Thanks guys for the kind reply.

hi Storiyist, I think standard poodle in a different colour is the safest choice. But I am so tempted to have different experience. Re the terrorist, I know it is kind of joking. Butif terriers are that bad, how come they are so popular. I am just curious. Eg, I see so many schnauzers around. Also, shouldn’t we see many more people keeping poodle and poodle only?

Hi LeoRose, mouthiness and bity are annoying but if these can be address by crate training and more exercising, I think they are acceptable. What I worry is they can never be trained to be a good family dog. Eg never can walk unleash, frequent fight with other animals in parks.

I think my question is among the terriers listed above, is there any of them relatively easier to train? If not, is the Portuguese Water Dog or another other suggestion will be highly appreciated. I really wish it is not a fact that poodle is the only trainable dog that shed less.
Thanks again.

 

[storyist]

Re the terrorist, I know it is kind of joking. Butif terriers are that bad, how come they are so popular.

They aren't terrible. I just think they'd be a lot more demanding than what you're used to, and I think a lot of people choose dog breeds by appearance without enough consideration to what those particular dogs are bred for. For instance, when I did Rottweiler rescue, I once got a call from a guy who said, "I can't decide between a Rottweiler and a Golden Retriever." He seemed to think the only difference between the breeds was tail and coat color.

If you start reading about the temperaments of some of those terriers, you see words like "feisty" and "scrappy." Don't make the mistake of going for just a certain kind of coat without consideration to what else you get with it. I think the reason there are fewer poodles around than terriers may have something to do with the whole foo-foo dog thing and the misconception that poodles all look like the ones seen at Westminster with the extreme show cuts.

I don't know from experience, but I have heard from other dog people that among the terriers, the Border Terrier is one of the easiest to train, and they are the ones I see here in Colorado at Rally trials, but that's only a couple of owners, so it may not mean anything. Similarly a woman who rescued them told me that Rat Terriers have a relatively mild terrier temperament.

 

[Benchan1]

Thanks storyist. I can’t agree more about the unfair comment to poodle. I love my poodle to death. It was our first dog and best dog ever in all aspects. So much compliments we received by whoever meeting him. I also understand why people think it is a girlish breed. It is just different from big Dane etc. That’s why I also want a different dog as my next dog. Btw, I also can’t take the show poodle cut look. I keep my dog coat short. And it is dense and curly. I personally think it looks very neat and sporty. And he keep his puppy face forever.

I have to be very honest that I steer my decision to terrier also because of the low shedding and appearance. But I would also like to make sure I understand what kind of animal they are and be prepared with effort, they can join the family so that the dog and human are both happy. And we will accept if not appreciate some character they have.

 

[3GSD4IPO]

With two toddlers I am going to suggest something that you may not like at all.
WAIT.
Give the current situation 3 years... and then get a second dog.

 

[DaySleepers]

Yes, it's important to realize that just because lots of people are really happy with a breed it doesn't mean that breed works for everyone. So many people absolutely adore their huskies and similar spitz breeds, for example, and would never own anything else, but an independent dog that doesn't have much in the way of natural handler focus would drive me crazy. Poodles, even though I agree they're hugely underrated and a good fit for many people, wouldn't be a good fit for someone who doesn't mesh well with sensitive dogs, or someone who isn't into physically affectionate dogs, or wants a very mellow, low-key temperament. There's definitely no one size fits when it comes to dogs.

So only you can answer whether the terrier temperament sounds like it'd be a good fit for you and your household. Many people actually enjoy those 'downsides' you listed - the high energy, stubbornness, independence, prey drive, etc. - but mention them because they know that these are not traits everyone enjoys in a dog. Just like how if someone tells me they're interested in poodles I'm going to tell them about the coat maintenance, sensitive nature, and their need for mental stimulation. I love how sensitive and aware of our moods my poodle is, I love training with him and watching him learn, and I love that he has a mischievous side and the brains to outsmart us at times (even if it results in him getting into things he's not supposed to - though less now than when he was a puppy), but that's not something everyone wants in their dog, so I'm not going to tell everyone to get a poodle no matter how happy I am with my boy.

As to the breeds, Portuguese Water Dogs are lovely and similar to poodles in many ways, but they're also closer to a working breed than most poodles are. This means you can expect higher energy and a more demanding dog (more mental and physical stimulation), especially for those first 2-3 years. This can be dependent on lines - a standard poodle from someone who breeds for hunting and/or sports may be a more intense dog than a PWD from a breeder who focuses on producing nice companion dogs. So talking to your breeder and finding someone whose breeding goals align with what your family wants/needs is so important, regardless of the breed you choose.

 

[Bluebird]

Hi all, first of all. Thanks for all active posters here. The level of depth of the replies in many topics are impressive.

I have had lots of reading online and asking in respective breed FB pages these days. And currently stuck in no suitable breed seem suitable for our next dog.

so, we have had our toy poodle (9kg) for some time. He is perfect in our family in all ways. He is trained well and always have compliment from all visitors on how amazing and gentle he behaved (even with visiting dogs). He always confident and calm. We are so proud of him.

we like dogs with minimal shedding. My wife nose won’t approve it. Nothing serious but she will keep sneezing. So we wanna avoid. And that why we had poodle.

now we are set to add another dog. Ideally something bigger than toy poodle but not huge as we have two toddlers. With lots of research online on the hypoallergenic breeds and online photo to see which dogs we like, we shortlisted to:
1. Kerry blue terrier
2. Welsh terrier
3. Schnauzer (not on the top rank of our list as it is too common from where I come from)
4. Irish terrier
5. Fox terrier
6. Soft coated wheaten terrier
7. Norwich terrier
9. Portuguese water dog
(We love the look of Airedale but worry about the size)

i think the list above is basically those low shedding dog whose have the look and size we like. However, as you can see, most of them are terrier (esp for the ones we like most, ie welshie, foxy, KBT). We were so excited that we were set on the breed. However, when we talked to the owners in the breed page, we got quite a bit of comment on terrier’s stubbornness, prey motive, independent, strong willed, never can walk off leash etc. And I think if I can never let my dog walk off leash even in a big park, that’s will be a shame. So, as a responsible owner, I think we should research more before pulling the trigger.

so my confusion really is, if all these breed are so difficult to work with, why the hell there are so many happy owners in the FB pages. Is it the case that they are trying to be responsible to avoid new owners giving up their dogs and try to exaggerate things to test my determination? But they also said, if you are committed to training, they are perfect dog. Can I have some feedback here to see whether any of the above is most suitable to my situation? I didn’t have formal training on dog training, but I read a lot and was able to establish a pack order at home. But I know that poodle is so trainable so I am asking for feedback here.

if it is not advisable to get any of the above? Do you have any other suggestion? I was thinking to get a standard poodle as I know they are totally different breed to toy poodle. But I really want some some variety.
Thanks all!

I really would look for a breed that would do well with your toy poodle some like a Shitzu or a Bichon.

 

[ScPuppy99]

Hmmmm... Well, I would suggest a mini or standard poodle, but I understand that you want some variety. So I think I have the perfect suggestion: A doodle! You have some poodle in there, but another breed, so you get variety but also your tried-and-true poodle. But of course doodles are in high demand so it may be hard to find a reputable breeder. Plus it might not be hypoallergenic (But if you do F1b or multi gen most of that problem gets erased). Still I recommend a doodle

 

[DaySleepers]

Unfortunately multi generational doodle crosses are often less predictable, not more (and as you mentioned, even an F1 mix can have an unpredictable coat). A jar of marbles is a good way to think of it - you start with one jar of 100 blue marbles and 100 red marbles. If you pull 50 from each jar and put them in a new jar, that's your first generation cross - exactly 50/50. If you take two of these F1 jars of half blue, half red marbles, and blindly pull fifty marbles from each, you don't know how many of each color you're going to wind up with. The more generations deep you go, the more exaggerated this effect gets, and it's worth noting that each puppy is a new 'jar' - it's entirely possible for one puppy in a litter to take strongly after the poodle side while all the others look something like scruffy goldens.

Breeders who have a very clear breeding goal can mitigate this by selecting breeding dogs very carefully for traits they want to continue, but it takes a lot of generations to create a breeding pool that is both genetically robust (eg not a crazy amount of inbreeding) and produces dogs who are consistent in looks (including coat type) and temperament. It also requires the resources to have a LOT of dogs (often multiple people are working on breed development projects like this) to work from, again in large part due to the need to avoid a genetic bottleneck. These breeders would rarely to never be crossing in purebreds or F1 50/50 crosses, and it would essentially be a new breed. While there have been a few people who've attempted this with doodles (the Australian Cobberdog is the one I know of off hand), it's extremely rare, and most breeders stick to dogs who are, at best, 3-4 generation mixes and frequently cross back to purebred dogs or F1 mixes.

I personally don't think purpose-bred mixes are inherently irresponsible, so long as the breeder is following high ethical breeding standards including: thorough genetic screening, hip/knee/elbow evaluations where necessary, eye and heart screening where necessary, careful evaluation of temperament and structure when choosing breeding stock, not overbreeding their dogs, providing good nutrition and care, and having an excellent puppy raising program that gives them a head start in socializing. The same things I expect from a breeder of purebreeds, essentially. But part of breeding mixes is understanding that they're inherently unpredictable in a way purebred dogs aren't, and I'd be wary of any doodle breeder saying otherwise.

 

[ScPuppy99]

Okay! Thanks for the information. Hm... Hey, you suggested a Portuguese Water Dog! Those aren’t terriers, and they might be a good match. Note that I have no experience with that breed whatsoever, but when I used a comparing tool (AKC compare), they seemed pretty similar, except for the fact that Portuguese Water Dogs are bigger. So that‘s probably a good match