Puppy Forum and Dog Forums banner

1 - 7 of 7 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,804 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
When I tell Lloyd to stand, he does but always moves his feet a little for like 15-20 seconds before staying still. Also, sometimes he will back up or come forward instead of standing where he is. The other problem we have with stand is when the person goes to run their hand down his back, he wiggles. He doesn't usually move his feet, but he does wiggle a lot. How do I get him to stand up and stay still quicker and how do I get him to stop wiggly when people touch him in a stand stay? I've worked with him with me and he doesn't wiggle anymore when I do it, but when anyone else does it he wiggles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,423 Posts
Generally, you need to move slower and correct the first sign of movement. Use the stop sign hand signal and repeat the stay command. In this case, you're not giving a 2nd command...you're reminding him of what he should be doing. Say it quietly and without rushing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
I had the same problem with Zerbert and this is what I did. When I tell her to stand (stay) I then gently push on her from the side as if I'm trying to knock her over (but really lightly so you don't actually knock her over!). When you feel her push back against you (which is a lot more obviously noticable than you would think) you praise/treat/click. . .whatever it is that you do to reinforce behavior. I usually just quietly praise so that it doesn't break her stay. What this does is it teaches the dog to kind of "dig in" to the floor with his/her feet. The dog learns not to just hang out there until they are released, but to actually kind of "hold tight" until released. It creates a really solid stand or sit stay.

I have also used a thin board that I put the dogs front feet on. If the feet move off the board then I correct. You could do this with anything that the dog can target with his/her feet, not just a board. I don't know if this will help with the wiggles, but it definately helps the happy feet! A similiar method to this is to balance treats on the dogs feet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,423 Posts
) I then gently push on her from the side as if I'm trying to knock her over (but really lightly so you don't actually knock her over!). When you feel her push back against you (which is a lot more obviously noticable than you would think) you praise/treat/click.
That's a purely instinctive/involuntary reflex to push back and really has little to do with the dogs understanding of Stay. It's called Opposition Reflex. That's why dogs pull on the leash or harness (opposition reflex) and we don't reward that either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
That's a purely instinctive/involuntary reflex to push back and really has little to do with the dogs understanding of Stay. It's called Opposition Reflex. That's why dogs pull on the leash or harness (opposition reflex) and we don't reward that either.
It conditions the dog to be ready for anything during a stay and to really hold on tight. For most dogs the first time you do it the dog will kind of stumble a little bit and won't really push back because it is unexpected. The dog quickly learns to hold tight and tense his/her leg muscles when approached by someone who is going to touch him/her during a stand stay. Personally, this is exactly what I want the dog to do during a stand for exam. You are capturing (well not really, becasue you are inducing the reaction, but you know what I mean) and shaping the opposition reflex, and yes rewarding it, because during a stay this is a desirable reaction.

Of course you don't reward pulling on the leash or harness and the comparison is a little far fetched in my opinion. If your dog is brilliant enough to think "I push against a little pressure from mom's hand on my shoulder when I'm trying not to break a stay and get praised for it, so therefore I will get praise for pulling against pressure on a leash during a walk" than you have the amazing human-minded beast! ;)

I am assuming that you are not, however, implying that this exercise will make your dog pull on a leash, but that it is futile to reward an involuntary reflex? In which case, I understand the reasoning, but I think that with repition the involuntary response can become voluntary. I'm babbling now, I will squelch my urge to give examples. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,307 Posts
It conditions the dog to be ready for anything during a stay and to really hold on tight. For most dogs the first time you do it the dog will kind of stumble a little bit and won't really push back because it is unexpected. The dog quickly learns to hold tight and tense his/her leg muscles when approached by someone who is going to touch him/her during a stand stay. Personally, this is exactly what I want the dog to do during a stand for exam. You are capturing (well not really, becasue you are inducing the reaction, but you know what I mean) and shaping the opposition reflex, and yes rewarding it, because during a stay this is a desirable reaction.

Of course you don't reward pulling on the leash or harness and the comparison is a little far fetched in my opinion. If your dog is brilliant enough to think "I push against a little pressure from mom's hand on my shoulder when I'm trying not to break a stay and get praised for it, so therefore I will get praise for pulling against pressure on a leash during a walk" than you have the amazing human-minded beast! ;)

I am assuming that you are not, however, implying that this exercise will make your dog pull on a leash, but that it is futile to reward an involuntary reflex? In which case, I understand the reasoning, but I think that with repition the involuntary response can become voluntary. I'm babbling now, I will squelch my urge to give examples. :)
With bird dogs we wanted style and when planting birds we would approach dog on point and actually push down on back since we did want higher stance etc. This was pre-started with whoa breaking as whoa just meant squeal to a stop so I may put a lead on you but in the teaching of whoa a lot of light pressure down on back. I never did push from sides as straight down appeared to do the job.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,423 Posts
Simply pointing out that Opposition Reflex (OR) is just that...involuntary. I prefer to use it to advantage in other exercises like restrained recalls and just haven't found it very valuable from a learning standpoint for Sit, Down or Stand stays. Personally, I don't want my dog to tense up when someone approaches....that's not what I want to teach him......I want him relaxed, confident and still.
And, you're right, I'm not saying this exercise will make the dog pull on lead...again, just the reflex action at work but, in a different way.
 
1 - 7 of 7 Posts
Top