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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello.
I have been reading on the german shepards and their history and read something that made me think.
Correct me anywhere I am wrong
When a breed is created it has limited genepool...
and with the german shepards beggining inbreeding occured between offspring from Horand, Hektor von Schwaben and others.
So lets say Hektor had a bad trait that has been passed on in a large amount of the german shepard breed. With his inbred offspring making it worse?


This isnt something Ive thought about and could be really minor in the longstretch of a breed but Im just wondering.

and then when you create a breed with mixes like lets Canis Panther (just roll with me)
that diversifies and no breeds genes are prominent=good?
Like to know more

And onto belgian sheepdogs vs gsds, differences between them. Structurally all I see is a slope with the gsds(what is that?)
Then the malinois and other variants.
They seem to have same body type and temperment with the belgian sheepdog and the gsd. Although the different types vary more?

One last thing, is it practical to have a dog not listen to commands from other people? I mean...idk thoughts.

Hope everybody and their pets had a good holiday season.
 

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I can't answer the in breeding questions. I don't line breed and the pools are larger now.

I can answer some malinois questions though. The structure is much different. Mals are lighter, more square,more athletic, faster, etc. Temperament is different as well, again faster, more intense than gsds. They tend to handle longer and tougher working conditions, make faster, more precise judgements. Bite first, ask questions later. Most people would not notice the differences in the two breeds until you have worked with both breeds, good working lines.

The differences in the Belgian breeds varies some, mostly on coats and colors, example the Dutch shepherd.

In working dogs it is essential the dog only follow your commands.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the help,
And I know the Malinois are...lighter are the feet lets say compared to the belgian sheepdog and the belgian sheepdog is closer to the gsd?
But yes I know the breed only from a working perspective as my neighbor is a k9 officer that works with a Belgian Malinois That is a Narc dog (Narcotics and rescue canine).
He is mistaken for a gsd alot but I knew he wasnt. Very smart alert, but leaner and really a dog that takes what I like in a gsd and morphs it. Very Cool dog though and Very Driven. Although He is just a narcotics and resuce he is very scary to some people although he isnt aggressive.

and I was wondering if its practical for normal obedience purposes....
 

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That is what I've read of GSD history. I'm not sure I follow. If there was such a trait it could be widespread from a founder and clearly offspring bred on him have a higher chance of to inherit said trait. Then further spread it. However you must have something to base this on. A specific disease and known mode of inheritance. Extended pedigrees and obviously for the full amount of generations. In theory it could be true of course.

No mixing in itself isn't good. If you are creating a breed you are going to linebreed or in the very least back cross to one of the breeds or breed to same cross breed. So certain genes become prominent good or bad. It's also not always possible to eliminate the bad without doing awat with some good. You will have to cull at any rate which lessens the gene pool though you are attempting to eliminate undesirable traits and keep those you want.

In an F1 breeding heterosis may occur (no guarantee you can't just throw to breeds together and get all good, no bad, you got to know what you're doing) and offspring may seem better. You could increase lifespan, immunity, reduction in cancer rate, increased fertility. However this isn't a promise. Secondly this is assuming you are using a less fit breed / breed where inbreeding depression is present.
As well simply mixing two breeds doesn't guarantee disease won't be present. A dominant disease will pass to the pups, some breeds have the same recessive diseases so if both are carriers some pups will be affected. There are certain complex diseases. Hip dyplasia is poly genetic disease that is widespread in dog BREEDS. Mixing together breeds with high incidence of hip dyplasia from a background of dogs with HD is going to yield pups with HD.

Some genes may behave better when heterozygous so clearly Inbreeding will produce pups with one issue or another if that is the case. (truth you can say you will get those problems without inbreeding eventually) But mixing breeds to get diversity to make better dogs is a huge misguided step. Because again there are genes which are common to the dog. So you can still produce less fit dogs and those with genetic disease.
If you are trying to eliminate a breed specific problem using crossing that id great, just be careful not to introduce something new. Or if you are creating a new breed screen for issues and be aware of potential problems. You have to do just the same as of you were breeding a pure breed.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Ya, you could end up with the healthiest dog in the world. Or The weakest.
I know there isnt a lot of info out there on the breed but I think the canis panther can be used as an example. It was based for pp. BUt diff breed were used with diff traits.

I agree its way more complicated than just throwing to breeds together but its cetainly a possibilty if the research was put it in. And just saying this is me talking about creating new dogs In HEALTH sense not DESIGNER.


Also Spicy you like the pit bull and boerbul,l cane corso, thoughts on Canis panther? They seem to have thought out there plan and are pretty solid only 3 breeders, they say alot of them go to active pet homes but some do pp etc.

I mean there are breeds out there that are generally healthy and the breeds with problems for their size but if you could create the right mix?
Health Wise again some people shoot for protection dogs and some maybe crazy agilty but Horand was the first gsd registered and he was from generations of seletive breeding!
So were talking 10 generations here where if had hip dysplasia.
And ya if both were reccesive carries youd be crap out of luck.
But Lets say you took x amount of breeds that would carry less over to each other crossed that suffered from illness the other was very healthy in and took 2 OFA Certified etc Akc
from exceptional lines. And did that. And did that with 2 other proven dogs...youd have a 25 25 25 25 That could end up if done RRIGHT end up with a healthier dog at the other end.


And seriously Thanks...your post added fuel to the fire and is Making me think even more lol.
 

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Most breeds were made from mixing breeds, some several breeds. Dogo Argentino was made from a number of breeds, Doberman likely from a varied assortment (they have their share of health problems).

As far as the Canis Panther they have a small gene pool. So some linebreeding must be going on. You are right about the lack of info not much I know of. Do you know health stats, problems that have popped up in the breed? The info should be public so that people can access the breed health.

Yes with research and knowledge I agree. You can get what you want and achieve good health. You have to really know what you are doing. You have to have knowledge of each breed and genetics. You have to cull and very selectively breed to fix traits.

Yes and a Boerboel cross. And I can't say pure or cross is more or less healthy. My pure dogs are healthy and he is healthy not because he is crossed but because he is bred from healthy parents with good genes.

If I'm going to get a dog (pure or mixed) I research as much I can, especially what I can on specific dogs in the pedigree and bloodlines.

As far as Canis Panther what is you asking? My opinion on health? I need to know the health info. As far as the breed having been created I think if it was done properly and the breeders are responsible its fine. Have you looked into the Donovan Pinscher? Seems like it may interest you.

I don't think a 4 way cross is necessary. (if that's what you are saying) You can't get what you need it takes generations. That's why they keep doing more breedings to breed true. If you want to make a breed healthier cull the affected dogs and carriers and bring in new blood of healthy stock if possible, if not breed to a similar breed using healthy stock adding them to the gene pool.

Also very few diseases are breed specific at best they affect only a few breeds. But the most prolific are inany breeds and are inherented the same way, same genes. So you are going to have possible cross over from whatever breeds. That's why it works best to use as few breeds as possible. If you are talking about health. You pick a breed with issues bring in a breed that doesn't have those issues and try to maintain the breed with blood of a new breed.
If its creating a new breed its complicated. You need to be aware of the health issues of each and be able to keep a good number of foundation stock.
 

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I'm really not sure what you're trying to ask... I think I get the gist of your post, but how is this a German Shepherd specific issue/question? A dog is not just its hip health, breeding is never black and white. To say that it is shades of gray would still be an understatement. Unfortunately, I cannot answer your questions regarding breeding either as I am just as clueless as you are. Please read Spicy1_VV's posts carefully, her knowledge and understanding of genetics/breeding is incredible. I always look forward to her posts.

Do want to say, however, that it is German Shepherd Dog. They herd, they do not "ard" ;)

Lastly, I do not know about practicality, but my dog does not work for others as well as he works for me and frankly I see no reason why he should. Even when a member of the family gives him a command, he is very likely to blow them off.


make faster, more precise judgements. Bite first, ask questions later.
(Emphasis mine)

I'll certainly agree with biting first, asking questions later but can't agree with "more precise". Although I will admit our definitions of "precise" may be different. If that is the case, completely my mistake.
 

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The differences in the Belgian breeds varies some, mostly on coats and colors, example the Dutch shepherd.
Small question: I think I'm not understanding correctly, but are you saying here that the Dutch Shepherd is a variety of the Belgian breeds? Or are you saying that the Belgian breeds differ between the varieties in coat and color, just like the Dutch Shepherd varieties differ in coat and color?
 

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Then the malinois and other variants.
They seem to have same body type and temperment with the belgian sheepdog and the gsd. Although the different types vary more?
To my knowledge, the Malinois, Tervueren, Groenendael and Laekenois all have differing characters. The body types are somewhat the same, yes. I know that there can be both Tervueren and Malinois in one litter, just like there can be both Groenendael and Tervueren in one litter. The breeds are genetically very close.
 

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The Dutch shepherds can have very light to black pups within the same litters. They can also have pups that are not brindled, which are often called mals then. The Belgians should be close structurally, coat lenght and type being the defined characteristics. Some Belgians are smaller, lighter dogs, some are heavier, you will find many variations in this breed. The show type dogs you would see at Akc shows, differ greatly from alot of working lines. They are very different from gsds however. I understand the OP views on the sloping rear end, it limits the working capabilities when you have a dog that can't jump, climb or has the athleticism of some of the requirements of what we put dogs through now. The precise statement, Belgians tend to be more focused, turn on faster, target better etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Ya thanks to Spicy. Really appreciate the knowledge.
Idk arding sounds pretty cool to me? New dog sport? Lol
No not really specific to gsds but reading about them is what made me think about this.
I mean what is the slope? We've had tons of threads on if before but....
Some must, But it seems they are all diff lines and work with each other.
I talked to rock of ages to get a little more info about them on the phone and although every breeder is gonna say they are healthy dogs, it seems they do pretty well for their size. When I talked to her minor stuff and they seem to be going pretty long.
Now they are really new so a problems could not be known yet but overall.
And I've read vaguely about the Donovan pincher don't
Really know much except bigger seemed to be hype from a little bit I saw
Didn't really look at them.
And I was just asking your thoughts overall.

And I guess there would be a difference in introducing new blood to improve a line
And creating a healthier breed.
What would you introduce to improve the modern gsd?

And for the Belgian sheepdog stuff, can they really all be In the same litter(the 2 groupings not all 4)? Very interesting close enough to be in same
Littler but diff body changes coat types and character?
Lot of good stuff.
 

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I am of the mindset that there's almost no better dog out there then a well bred German Shepherd. I've been researching breeders and when I'm ready, I'm going to get a puppy. Not to show or title, just to own for the pure enjoyment of owning one.

The belgian shepherds (malinois, lakinois, belgian, turveran sp?) were used in the creation of the GSD. However, most of them are less mentally stable then a GSD. That's why you see GSDs in a broader range of areas then most other breeds: Search and Rescue, Guide Dogs, Service Dogs, Herding, Schutzhund, Obedience, Agility, Tracking, and the often overlooked wonderful family dog.

Shepherds are MUSH with their people. Belgian Shepherds can be sharp.

Give me a dog that can go out and take down a burgler and then come home and wrestle with a five year old and yet KNOW the difference between the two so that the burgler gets what's coming to him, and the five year old gets a best friend for life. <3 They're just an amazing breed.


Not withstanding, Belgian Sheps def. have their place. They're really cool, driven dogs. For certain types of police work, they're the TOPS for sure. Their athleticism is almost unparalleled.

GSDs are a new breed just like the Border Collie is a new breed. They were created to work with humans (both breeds) just in different ways.

As for health issues- the Belgian Shepherds have quite a few issues of their own. Once you start doing research, you can see where some of the problems in the German Shepherds orginally came from. From your standpoint, Zach, German Shepherds should actually be healthier because they're a mix.

You see how that works, right? It's the individual genetics of the parents being bred that create the health or the issue of the litter.

Cardigans will always be my heart breed, and the breed that I'll pour my soul into, but I have room in my heart for a GSD. ;-)
 

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Good gsds are really good. Seems they are getting harder to find with enough drives and good nerve though. Just two days ago my friend came by with her two year old son. My Belgian mal, who is protection trained and has one heck of a bite, played with him for two hours straight. They tugged, fetched, he would throw toys up in the air she would almost turn a flip to catch them, she would bring them back, drop in his lap and run backwards for more. Her ears and cheeks were pulled and kissed, in the end I helped the baby put sunglasses on the dog, so she wouldn't get an eye poked lol. Some are very family friendly and extremely stable dogs.
That said, the other dogs were out during his visit, as they are not as tolerant. I don't recommend the Belgians formany people at all. They are definitely an extreme breed, but by far my favorite!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
From what I have read In the time the gsds was created
They were standardizing dogs for certain traits (herding) and were breeding
The one with the best traits for that intelligence agility etc. that dude bought that dog that was from several generations of selective breeding from
Dogs that showed
Good traits. He became the first gsd in registry.
Let's put the standard gsd vs the normal Belgian sheepdog.
Are there personalities that different?
How did the gsd come to develop some other traits?
And FYI I like both the gsd and Belgian Shepard
I've met both of them and really enjoy them.
 

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I'm confused. You asked on average what their differences were. Then you ask if all of them are like that?

Do you know what a bell curve is? You will have outliers in almost every breed trait, but on the whole, the purpose of a closed gene pool is to concentrate certain traits while eliminating other traits.

You could probably find a laid back Belgian, but you'd be hard pressed to find one.

On the whole, Belgians are sharper, more driven, bite first ask questions later type dogs. They are more athletic and less mentally stable. They have a higher prey drive.

GSDs seem to think more then Belgians do and GSDs need human interaction more then Belgians. Belgians can work an abandoned building all day by themselves. Shepherds would probably prefer to work in a human/dog team.

It just depends on what you want.
 

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Not every dog fits its breed description perfectly. I had a lazy pup out out of one litter. He wanted to hang back, lay on the couch, when the rest were crackheads over whatever was going on. I placed him in a non working home, Guy wanted a mal, had researched but never owned one. First call to check, all was well. Second call, he is a little crazy, get him in training. Then the man calls me, says the dog is nucking futs. Pup comes back here, still on the lazy side. He is now working narcotics, his drive did come out, but still not the psycho dogs that I like to see. You won't find many calm ones that's for sure. The quiet ones are not what most people consider calm.
 

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This may help.... a gsd is looking for dope. A car pulls up, Guy jumps out screaming, takes off running. The gsd looks to the handler, says what now?
The mal, finds the dope, runs and bites the crazy man, goes back and alerts on the dope, while the handler is just picking up the radio to call for backup. Lol, then insists on searching the other ten buildings because they are there.
 

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Yes GSDs and Belgians are different!!!! Though if you look at original GSD like the ones you have studied you will notice an original body type. They are different in temperament and appearance, though mine was mistaken for GSD because its a common breed.

Belgian varieties differ but are essentially the same breed. It is only in AKC, probably CKC too, that they are separated. They are not considered separate breeds in other countries, like their home country.

What to cross with a GSD? I dont know it would take research, but the first question: is it needed? Are there not enough healthy GSDs, genetic diversity, ect How often do "bad" GSDs come from good breeders?
 
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