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Discussion Starter #1
Short of cooking my own, which Kibble brand offers the least Grain, carbs, corn fillers etc?

My dog is dying of cancer now and by most expert opinions say Cancers need grains and carbs to live and multiply. Millions of dogs die each year from Cancer and many experts believe diet can play a role is starving off the likely hood.

On a side note, I have always fed my Blue Heeler Bufflao Blue. He lived a super healthy life up until this hermangiosarcoma which is eating him up from the inside. He had his spleen removed 30 days ago and has gained 5 lbs on a diet of
semi cooked. Liver, Heart, ground beef, kidney, bok choy, spinach and broccoli along with his cancer medicines and Hill RX Canine ND.

In the last month his shedding has been reduced by 70% on this diet over the BufBlu. I have to think this is a better way to go for a new addition to the family but it does get expensive and is time consuming. I have no problem doing this now, but for my next puppy I want to take precautions where I can and start my next him or her off right.

I want "great" not good food this time if there is any consensus here other than Raw/semi raw.

Thanks
Joe
 

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I am truly sorry to hear that your dog has cancer....

I feel the closest kibble to raw is Innova EVO. But, I understand that is not a good idea for a puppy. I'm not sure tho'. Orijen is a great food, too. And I believe they have a puppy formula. I have never used Orijen, eventho' I would love to.

Blue Buffalo is a good food too. If you wanted to use the puppy formula (or another high quality kibble, like Innova Puppy, or Wellness Puppy, etc.) for the puppy stage and then transition over to a grain-free that might be the way to go for a new puppy.

These are the grain-free kibbles I know about...EVO, Wellness Core, Orijen,
Taste of the Wild, Merrick Before Grain, Solid Gold BATM, Instinct, FROMM Surf & Turf, and Canidae is coming out with a new grain-free, too. I hope I haven't forgotten any others.

Oh...The Honest Kitchen is a great dehydrated food that is grain-free. You just mix it with water to hydrate and they have great formulas!

GOOD LUCK and may God Bless you and your companion and future companions.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thank you for a great response. Whoever put grains in dog food is only looking at their own bottom line and not the health of carnivores IMO. If this is attributable to my dogs condition of course I have no way of telling but I am on guard now and won't repeat that mistake and especially when I saw what a new diet did for his coat.

I have thought through the puppy thing abit this morning and I'll thinking now I should rescue a dog in the range of 6 months to a year. I'm not sure at what point a puppy food should be substituted for an adult food but hopefully will find the right answer.
 

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Your welcome...

I'm not too sure either, altho' I believe it depends on whether your puppy is a toy/small breed or large breed. I'm sure your vet can inform you.

I forgot to mention, in case you don't already know this, that there are all-life-stage formulas out there, too. However, they do have grains in them.

Another thing...grain-frees like TOTW Pacific Stream and Wellness Core are lower in protein and fat and "may" be okay for a puppy. I'm sure there are other responders that know more than me on here and can help you in your quest.

Again, Good Luck and God Bless!
 

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I am so sorry about your dog having cancer. I know this is a difficult time for you and your dog.

Typically, for a small breed, you would switch to an adult food at about 8-10 months, a medium breed, 10 -12 months and large breeds, 2 years.

With respect to Wellness Core, it says on the bag that your dog should be at least a year old before feeding it. Presumably, this is because a high protein food will cause accelerated growth and put stress on a puppy's structure and therefore, cause problems such as hip dysplasia. So many people will suggest not feeding a high protein dog food to a puppy.

I've read a bit about it and in my opinion, puppies need higher protein because they cannot process it as efficiently as an adult dog. From what I've read, it seems that overfeeding a puppy causes accelerated growth and added stress on the puppy's body structure.

Having said that, the only grain-free brands I've experience with are Wellness Core, Orijen, and Innova Evo. The Wellness Core has 34% protein and 14% fat (I may be slightly off in the fat percentage) while Orijen and Evo have around 42% protein and 22% fat approximately. I think Wellness' premise is that other nutrients wouldn't have to be increased due to the high protein content. They tested how much protein a dog would use as opposed to eliminating excess protein. Orijen has a puppy and adult formula as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Thank you for your response.

Shedding is also an issue for me. I understand all dogs shed (most) but I have seen the amount of shedding drop significantly since going to a cooked diet. The question then becomes;which brand of the kibble outlined above reduces shedding to a noticeable degree?

My dog shed quite a bit on Buffalo Blue and none of the BB variations seemed to have much of an effect. My guess is it is good food but not great.

I've started going to shelters and contacting rescue organizations looking for a new best friend. I've joined a pet loss forum for support to help me work though the upcoming loss while trying to learn what I can do with diet next time.

My dog is on raw-semi cooked liver, b6 and vitamin C right now trying to build red blood cells. Not a balanced diet of course but these are dire circumstances.

BTW, that is a great point on preventing hip displasia. In most probability I will be getting a dog under 1 year of age, under 50 lbs, under 20" high when full grown, short to medium hair length. I'm thinking another Blue Heeler or Mini Aussie Shepard or maybe even a small Border collie.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I got a 6 week old Blue Heeler pup today. He's home. Now, what to feed him for the next year?
 

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Short of cooking my own, which Kibble brand offers the least Grain, carbs, corn fillers etc?

My dog is dying of cancer now and by most expert opinions say Cancers need grains and carbs to live and multiply. Millions of dogs die each year from Cancer and many experts believe diet can play a role is starving off the likely hood.

On a side note, I have always fed my Blue Heeler Bufflao Blue. He lived a super healthy life up until this hermangiosarcoma which is eating him up from the inside. He had his spleen removed 30 days ago and has gained 5 lbs on a diet of
semi cooked. Liver, Heart, ground beef, kidney, bok choy, spinach and broccoli along with his cancer medicines and Hill RX Canine ND.

In the last month his shedding has been reduced by 70% on this diet over the BufBlu. I have to think this is a better way to go for a new addition to the family but it does get expensive and is time consuming. I have no problem doing this now, but for my next puppy I want to take precautions where I can and start my next him or her off right.

I want "great" not good food this time if there is any consensus here other than Raw/semi raw.

Thanks
Joe

Sorry about your dog...

Congrats on the Heeler Pup.....
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks Johnny. I did a ton of research then spent two hours with a lap full of puppies. I had my pick of the litter. I got the dog I wanted I "think". A people loving puppy, middle of the road active, submissive. A male full mask.

I took him over to meet my sons Belgian Malinous tonight and that went fine. I brought him home and within 10 min. my other Blue and the new puppy were sleeping side by side.

The new pup follows me everywhere and would be in my lap all the time if I would let him. The puppy is asleep in his crate with his door open and the big blue is in the bed. It looks good on the meet and greet at least for night #1.

I asked what he had been eating and he said Purina Puppy Chow. UGH! He has a change in his diet in his very near future.
 

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Thanks Johnny. I did a ton of research then spent two hours with a lap full of puppies. I had my pick of the litter. I got the dog I wanted I "think". A people loving puppy, middle of the road active, submissive. A male full mask.

I took him over to meet my sons Belgian Malinous tonight and that went fine. I brought him home and within 10 min. my other Blue and the new puppy were sleeping side by side.

The new pup follows me everywhere and would be in my lap all the time if I would let him. The puppy is asleep in his crate with his door open and the big blue is in the bed. It looks good on the meet and greet at least for night #1.

I asked what he had been eating and he said Purina Puppy Chow. UGH! He has a change in his diet in his very near future.
Cool!!! Heelers are my favorite.

Post some pics when you get a chance.

Here is my boy.... Merlin.... 16 months old. He is quite full of himself.


 

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Discussion Starter #11
Great looking dog you have there. Yes these are great dogs.

The new pup is closer to the breed standard. Hard to tell too much now until he colors up though. Looks something like a masked polar bear baby right now. His tail is docked and what's left is just a black button on his light gray fur. His dad was super stocky @ 60 lbs, Mom was 40. Dad was a very dark brown to black, mom was a tan merle. I "think" this dog will be a wide body from his size. It looks like his legs may be tan Merle in the end but who knows.

I've been up every two hours all night. You know the puppy drill.
 

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The new pup is closer to the breed standard. His tail is docked and what's left is just a black button on his light gray fur.
Are ACDs supposed to be docked? I can't say I've ever seen one with a docked tail :confused: .
 

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Here's what someone on another group has fed her dog with mast cell cancer, and has done well for her (and other dogs with cancer).

Twice a day:

15 minutes before food : 1 Pepcid ( H2 blocker)

Innova EVO dog food (no grains and a low percentage of carbs)- I use 1 1/4 cups per feeding (she is 85 pounds)
1/4 cup of cottage cheese (1% fat )
2500 mg of fish oil ( capsules ) - I pierce a hole in it and squirt into the cottage cheese- I use Jarrows EPA-DHA Balance Fish oil
Alka- Balance ( Source Naturals) - Crush 3 tablets with a mortar and pestal and mix into cottage cheese mixture.
2 benedryl (H1 blocker)
1 prednisone ( 20 mg per day)

If you are doing this as a preventive, I would only do the dog food, cottage cheese and fish oil. Its a good idea to add veggies to your dogs food too. I use the food processor and grind up spinach a couple times a week and add it to the food. High alkalinity in the blood discourages cancer.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
I have not seen a bobbed tail in a show ring at least. I was referring to the "standard colors." My big Blue is black and white and very little brown. The new puppy has more standards colors.

He's wearing me out keeping me up 2 nights in a row trying to crate train him. Whine barks and howls all night. I forgot what this was like.

Thanks for posting the cancer info.

Yes, 6 weeks seemed a bit young to me too and he's acting like it. He's about 4.5 lbs. My other male is 38.5 lbs.
 

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I have not seen a bobbed tail in a show ring at least. I was referring to the "standard colors." My big Blue is black and white and very little brown. The new puppy has more standards colors.

He's wearing me out keeping me up 2 nights in a row trying to crate train him. Whine barks and howls all night. I forgot what this was like.

Thanks for posting the cancer info.

Yes, 6 weeks seemed a bit young to me too and he's acting like it. He's about 4.5 lbs. My other male is 38.5 lbs.
The dog in your avatar looks like a blue speckle. Which is an acceptable color.

Your pup is a blue with black and tan markings. Like my Merlin. He is actually listed as a blue speckle with black and tan markings. He was fairly speckled as a young pup. But now the speckle is not very noticable. It is there if you look at it just the right way. It may be the same with your pup. From the looks of it, He will be close in color and markings to my dog.

He has a nice Bentley as well. (The white mark between his ears on his head. This is desirable)

As for the docked tails..... The standard calls for a full tail. I have seen it done. In Florida a fair number of ranch dogs have docked tails. Some believe it keeps them from injuring their tail. (you can't injure what you don't have) I prefer the tail myself. I have been around stock dogs all my life and never seen a dog get a tail injury working stock. Bandit, my previous ACD was missing about three inches that had to be removed due to a self inflicted injury. If you watch an ACD run and cut working hard or playing hard, you can see them use their tail as a rudder or counter balance.

But over all I see no harm in the docked tail. Your dog will not miss it.

In Australia there is a second very closely related breed called the Stumpy Tailed Cattle Dog. These are natural bob tails. The original cross that started the road to Queensland Heelers( known as ACDs and Blue Heelers here) involved a breed called a Smithfield. Which was a natural bob. Originally the tailed dogs and bobs were interbred. But they were eventually separated and are now known as two breeds.

There are a few stumpy tails in the US but most of the tail less Heelers you see are ACDs that have had their tails docked.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
This puppy is a fir terror. In 48 hours he's now taken over. Backing down my big male by snapping at and barking at him, whining, barking, howling from 10:00 pm until somewhere between 3:00 and 4:30 am in his crate. I was up every two hours again last night. He sleeps all day, up all night.

Humping his toys this early was something that surprised me. He running to every room in the house now (that he can) and has an affinity for chewing wires, leather and carpet even though the floor is covered with approved chew toys. He has snapped at me once in aggression.

STUBBORN - STUBBORN - STUBBORN and will not go along with anything I ask of it. I'm not sure this puppy is going to make it around here and starting day 3 everyone is exhausted except him. The neighbors are complaining about the howling and I'm taking double sleeping medication. Cool dog yeah, but a major unruly alpha attitude already. If I don't get some sleep and can appease the neighbors and get a handle on his aggression, this puppy will find a new home and f-a-s-t. This puppy has a serious separation anxiety problem and wants his way no matter what, and won't take no for an answer even when I try to redirect him.

The dog on my avatar was a rescue from a shelter so I have no idea but he looks a lot like this. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/stumpytailcattledog.htm. I got him at about 6 months. Been a great dog and a very best friend. Few issues over his lifetime.

The very first Blue I had looked very much like the standard and without the docked tail. At 6 months he ate a bath towel in his crate and died on the operating table. I spent a small fortune on him with trainers so that I could have people in my house. No matter what I did or how much I spent on trainers none of it took and that dog was like having a wild animal in the house.

I'm having serious issues with this new puppy and if I don't figure out how to tame the beast. He's out.
 

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Jlacy, I suggest you create a thread in our training forum so you can get some advice on these issues. I wouldn't be so quick to suspect aggression; I definitely wouldn't be so quick to rehome the pup.
 

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This puppy is a fir terror. In 48 hours he's now taken over. Backing down my big male by snapping at and barking at him, whining, barking, howling from 10:00 pm until somewhere between 3:00 and 4:30 am in his crate. I was up every two hours again last night. He sleeps all day, up all night.

Humping his toys this early was something that surprised me. He running to every room in the house now (that he can) and has an affinity for chewing wires, leather and carpet even though the floor is covered with approved chew toys. He has snapped at me once in aggression.

STUBBORN - STUBBORN - STUBBORN and will not go along with anything I ask of it. I'm not sure this puppy is going to make it around here and starting day 3 everyone is exhausted except him. The neighbors are complaining about the howling and I'm taking double sleeping medication. Cool dog yeah, but a major unruly alpha attitude already. If I don't get some sleep and can appease the neighbors and get a handle on his aggression, this puppy will find a new home and f-a-s-t. This puppy has a serious separation anxiety problem and wants his way no matter what, and won't take no for an answer even when I try to redirect him.

The dog on my avatar was a rescue from a shelter so I have no idea but he looks a lot like this. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/stumpytailcattledog.htm. I got him at about 6 months. Been a great dog and a very best friend. Few issues over his lifetime.

The very first Blue I had looked very much like the standard and without the docked tail. At 6 months he ate a bath towel in his crate and died on the operating table. I spent a small fortune on him with trainers so that I could have people in my house. No matter what I did or how much I spent on trainers none of it took and that dog was like having a wild animal in the house.

I'm having serious issues with this new puppy and if I don't figure out how to tame the beast. He's out.
What sort of issues are you having? He may be unruly but he is not aggressive.

This is not a knock on you, but at 6 weeks he came away from his mother and siblings too soon. Dogs learn a ton in those two weeks. At six weeks they are just starting to get real active. So if they stay with their mother until at least 8 weeks, they have a couple of weeks to pester her and learn boundries and what is acceptable and not acceptable. They also learn limits in play with their siblings.

I will try to help you anyway I can. But I do think you are thinking of giving up way too soon. With that in your head, a Heeler will outsmart and outlast you every time.

If you decide you are going to stick it out, you need to get the pup on "Nothing in Life is Free" IMMEDIATELY. I think there is a thread around here somewhere on it.

ACD's are GREAT dogs but they can be a bit of work. They are SMART... This is not meant to knock any other breed but most have superb problem solving abilities and uncanny knacks for getting their owners to do what they want. Their "smarts" rival other breeds thought geniuses of the dog world. Border Collies for example. But ACDs' can come in a much less managable package. They tend to know they are smart and clever. And just because they love you does not mean they will obey you. I have owned a bunch of breeds and have found that you REALLY have to earn their respect. They don't get their feelings hurt easily and will test you at every opportunity. When I got my first ACD the breeder made a statement sort of over her shoulder as I was leaving. It is ingrained in my head.... She said. "Oh by the way, you need to remember anytime you are trying to train a cattle dog to do something, it is trying to train you as well". I didn't think much of it at the time.

IF you stop and think about what ACD's were developed to do, it will tell you a lot. They were bred to drive and herd wild dangerous cattle over long distances. They will run right up to a steers rear hooves, bite him, dodge or duck and do it again. Something is wrong with a dog that thinks playing this outback russian roulette is fun.....And they love it.

You have to be smarter, tougher, more tenacious, and more stubborn than they are. The trick is you have to do it without force. Hit a cattle dog and they will retaliate. Be cruel or mean and they will spite you. It is difficult to explain but I have had success with my two and several others I have trained by being, calm, patient, and confident. At the same time unyeilding, and stubborn.

You have to make sure your will is followed. Because they like to win. If you yield once, they learn in that one time that you can be beaten and they will try to beat you every time there after.

Let me know how I can help.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Hi Johnny,

You are exactly right on all counts. It's not very often I agree with someone 100% but cannot find anything I disagree with in what you said. Every heeler I have owned tested me all the way. This puppy is no exception.

This puppy learns very quickly. Bite inhibition has almost gone away in just a few days. He understands the word no. Last night I put a windup clock in his crate. He slept from 10:00 PM to 4:30 am without much of a peep out of him. It was the first night since I had him that anyone got any sleep in the house so I am thinking straight this morning for a change.

Yesterday, I put out some feelers to rehome him. I got many calls and one was from a person who lives on a horse ranch. This may be the best solution for him. While I would give him a home in the city in the lap of luxury, it's not the very best home for this type of puppy #1 and second, I need to provide a best home for my older dog.

I really have to consider my older dog here too. He does not feel well and will continue to go down hill as the cancer takes him from me. I thought the puppy may have made him perk up a bit but it's looking like the puppy is more of a liability to him than anything else.

I think the best thing to do for everyone concerned is rehome the puppy to the ranch and let him be a Blue Heeler in his true spirit. This is a great puppy without question, but my timing was off at a number of different levels. It's not anyones fault but my own and I accept full responsibility for all of it. However at this point, that which is in my control should be applied for the good of the whole.

Could I deal with the new puppy issues? Sure, I could work though them but is it the best thing for everyone right now? When I look at this realistically I really don't think so even as much as I love this puppy. I have to think and do what's best for all right now and my gut tells me to rehome him to his optimal location and provide the best care and attention I can give to my older male. Right or wrong I have always done and will continue to do what's right for my animals. I will make mistakes but it will be out of ignorance not malice but in the end, I will do what's right.

The rancher is supposed to meet me in about 24 hours. I will think about this more and make a final decision tomorrow. At least I have some brain power to compute all this. Sleep does wonders.

BTW, the puppy went to the top of the stairs this morning and barked, I took him out and he potted instantly. If this is chance who knows but he "seemed" to know that his place to relive himself was somewhere downstairs. This is a very smart puppy is my guess and he continues to amaze me as I get to know him.
 
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