Ecollars used to punish aggression tend to escalate aggression. You can teach obedience but it simply overlays the issues without addressing them. I'm guessing that part of the reason things are getting worse is because of the "boot camp" training. IMO growling or snapping at a big clueless dog to stop it from humping is not aggression, it's communication.
German Shepherd Aggression
Hello! I am new to the forum and am in desperate need of advice. First, a little background: I have two dogs, a 5 year old Husky and a 2 year old German Shepherd. About a year ago, I moved in with my boyfriend. He has a 5 year old Bull Mastiff. All three of the dogs live together in the same house. All dogs are male. My two are neutered; my boyfriend's is not.
Over time, problems started brewing between the GSD and mastiff. The mastiff would occassionally hump the GSD, which would spark aggression in the GSD. He would growl or snap at the mastiff to get him to stop. The humping has stopped, but the aggression on the part of the GSD has worsened. He has attacked the mastiff many times, leaving puncture wounds on his face and neck. It is an awful, high stress living situation that is not fair to the mastiff. I am fully aware of this.
I have taken the GSD for a one week "boot camp" at the facility near our house that trains police K9s. They trained him with a prong collar. While his obedience improved, the aggression towards the mastiff remains. Last night the GSD attacked the mastiff just because I told the mastiff, "NO" for something he was doing. He left a large hole in his ear. This was the worst attack yet.
I am now exploring the option of using an e-collar to further train and curb the GSD's aggression. I would love some advice on how to use the e-collar to ensure that I do not inadvertently worsen the aggression with the use of the collar.
Please, I do not want this to be a discussion of why not to use e-collars. I also do not want people telling me to rehome my GSD. I want to correct this issue and do everything I can do myself before looking into any other options. I would really appreciate any feedback anyone could give me on using e-collars with aggressive dogs. Thank you so much for your help!
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If they used a prong collar, I doubt they are the "best" facility. At least I hope not.I've already had him trained by the best facility in northwest Indiana. Like I said, it helped with obedience, but did nothing for the aggression. I have a lot of experience with positive training methods and have to say that they have not worked very well. My Husky was trained with NILIF and I wasn't impressed. Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.
I wouldn't be using the ecollar to punish aggression; I would use it to correct him when he chooses to ignore my commands (whether it be sit, stay, etc.) in hopes that it would transfer over to the aggression problem, if that makes sense. I would never use the shock when he was involved in a scuffle, as I know the dangers of this.
I didn't blame the GSD when he was growling while being humped and I definitely agree with you that that is two dogs communicating in their own way. All I was saying in regards to that is I think that is when the major issues between the two started.
I didn't blame the GSD when he was growling while being humped and I definitely agree with you that that is two dogs communicating in their own way. All I was saying in regards to that is I think that is when the major issues between the two started.
Many people have their own opinions on what is the most effective method of training. That was not the reason for this post and it has gotten WAY off topic; not one person on here has directly answered the question that was asked. I do not care who is in favor of prong collars, e-collars, positive training methods, etc. and I put that disclaimer out there in my initial post. I asked for help with the e-collar, which I still haven't gotten. Thanks anyway.
Crate and rotate.View attachment 34421 View attachment 34422 View attachment 34423
Hello! I am new to the forum and am in desperate need of advice. First, a little background: I have two dogs, a 5 year old Husky and a 2 year old German Shepherd. About a year ago, I moved in with my boyfriend. He has a 5 year old Bull Mastiff. All three of the dogs live together in the same house. All dogs are male. My two are neutered; my boyfriend's is not.
Over time, problems started brewing between the GSD and mastiff. The mastiff would occassionally hump the GSD, which would spark aggression in the GSD. He would growl or snap at the mastiff to get him to stop. The humping has stopped, but the aggression on the part of the GSD has worsened. He has attacked the mastiff many times, leaving puncture wounds on his face and neck. It is an awful, high stress living situation that is not fair to the mastiff. I am fully aware of this.
I have taken the GSD for a one week "boot camp" at the facility near our house that trains police K9s. They trained him with a prong collar. While his obedience improved, the aggression towards the mastiff remains. Last night the GSD attacked the mastiff just because I told the mastiff, "NO" for something he was doing. He left a large hole in his ear. This was the worst attack yet.
The big problem with using police K9 trainers to train pet dogs is that while police K9s have to be trained to a very high obedience level, they rarely bother to train out or curb any dog (or even human sometimes) aggression. Generally, their methods are reliable for producing good K9 working dogs and nothing more or less than that. Simply put, you chose the wrong facility for your specific situation and needs regardless of how well regarded or rated that facility is in the police world
I am now exploring the option of using an e-collar to further train and curb the GSD's aggression. I would love some advice on how to use the e-collar to ensure that I do not inadvertently worsen the aggression with the use of the collar.
Don't use it. I have seen the negative effects of a "professional" trainer (who, in other situations had done a good job of training) use one on a dog aggressive dog. She basically shut him down and then, once the collar was off and he wasn't being shocked, he attacked and killed another dog and injured his owner in the process. He was put down. When a dog is genetically dog aggressive, he isn't so much "disobeying" your commands (like say, refusing to sit) as he is following an overwhelming natural urge. Shocking him (creating PAIN) for this will do nothing except create more aggression as he will likely associate the pain with the mastiff and become more and more aggressive towards the 'source' of the pain. Using an ecollar to train other commands, unrelated to the times he is being aggressive, is highly unlikely to help and honestly, I have seen the use of ecollars CREATE dog aggression because the dog ends up so stressed and frustrated they lash out at any easy target
Please, I do not want this to be a discussion of why not to use e-collars. I also do not want people telling me to rehome my GSD. I want to correct this issue and do everything I can do myself before looking into any other options. I would really appreciate any feedback anyone could give me on using e-collars with aggressive dogs.
People are giving you feedback on using e-collars with aggressive dogs---- they are overwhelmingly telling you not to do so
Thank you so much for your help!
You're not going to get the responses you want to dictate others to give you because the responses you want are not the ones that will help your dogs.
Edit to add:
After a period of crate and rotate, with the assistance of a GOOD trainer who has successfully worked with aggressive dogs and helped tone down said aggression (get many references and seek out your own references for any trainer) you may be able to have them interact in a controlled and supervised environment such as on-leash walks with a different person walking each dog.
That's not quite how it works. Teaching him that there are aversive consequences for disregarding your commands will either make him more wary of you when he's stressed (and once again, it seems like his stress response right now is further aggression towards the mastiff) or simply be completely ineffective because when he gets that worked up his sympathetic nervous system has kicked in (fight or flight) and you are past the realm of learning and into management territory. It's kindof like asking someone to solve math problems while riding a rollercoaster. A dog over threshold like that cannot build a new emotional response, you have to work sub-threshold before you bring up the intensity like that.I wouldn't be using the ecollar to punish aggression; I would use it to correct him when he chooses to ignore my commands (whether it be sit, stay, etc.) in hopes that it would transfer over to the aggression problem, if that makes sense.
Also, ignoring you can actually be a sign of stress. Your dog may simply be trying to communicate to you that they are uncomfortable.
Another book you might find useful is a short read called "On Talking Terms With Dogs" by Turid Rugaas. It's a basic photo illustrated guide and breakdown of dog body language and social signals. This might give you a little more insight into the interaction between your shep and mastiff as well.
Don't use the e-collar is the advice you're getting. You can start searching for a behaviorist at iaabc.org
People aren't going to give advice on something they know isn't the answer. It sounds to me like the GSD thinks you are unable to control the situation and he is taking charge instead. An e-collar won't help that.Many people have their own opinions on what is the most effective method of training. That was not the reason for this post and it has gotten WAY off topic; not one person on here has directly answered the question that was asked. I do not care who is in favor of prong collars, e-collars, positive training methods, etc. and I put that disclaimer out there in my initial post. I asked for help with the e-collar, which I still haven't gotten. Thanks anyway.
I am not a trainer and those with experience on here may disagree with me. But like I said earlier I am currently working through a similar situation and with some training (without the use of prong and e collars) and working daily with the dogs All three of my dogs can be in the same room together supervised without incident. This is a huge improvement from when she would snarl and growl through a glass door.
If you would like to learn proper use of an e collar, there are many sources. Bart Bellon is one who travels and does seminars.
You may have used Faus I believe he is in northern Indiana. The only problem.with training with police k 9 trainers, they really don't care if the dogs are aggressive with others. I have trained with bill before, if that's who you used, and yes they are.fine for what they do. That's not what you need however.
Obedience will help keeping your dog under control with aggression. Teach him to focus on you before there is any tension between the two dogs. It's going to take time and work, and keeping them.separated when you aren't there to control things. Even then, some.dogs don't get along.
One of my dutch bitches was just plain mean. The other dogs mostly just avoided her. One malinois female had enough, and they would fight over a toy, a treat, attention, a look, a rock, a stick, you name it. Neither would back down. Positive reinforcement was not going.to get it here. Her reward was literally the fight. It did take negative corrections to get her on track. Which I don't often recommend, however, working with dogs that can have severe human aggression, you do what is needed sometimes. The dutchie is happily working with a.department in Illinois now.
Another one here had severe aggression, and this has been worked on with mostly positive rewarding, focusing on me. Not every dog will respond, some are just going to have that aggression. It can be managed, but usually never gone.
You may have used Faus I believe he is in northern Indiana. The only problem.with training with police k 9 trainers, they really don't care if the dogs are aggressive with others. I have trained with bill before, if that's who you used, and yes they are.fine for what they do. That's not what you need however.
Obedience will help keeping your dog under control with aggression. Teach him to focus on you before there is any tension between the two dogs. It's going to take time and work, and keeping them.separated when you aren't there to control things. Even then, some.dogs don't get along.
One of my dutch bitches was just plain mean. The other dogs mostly just avoided her. One malinois female had enough, and they would fight over a toy, a treat, attention, a look, a rock, a stick, you name it. Neither would back down. Positive reinforcement was not going.to get it here. Her reward was literally the fight. It did take negative corrections to get her on track. Which I don't often recommend, however, working with dogs that can have severe human aggression, you do what is needed sometimes. The dutchie is happily working with a.department in Illinois now.
Another one here had severe aggression, and this has been worked on with mostly positive rewarding, focusing on me. Not every dog will respond, some are just going to have that aggression. It can be managed, but usually never gone.
Thank you for actually answering my question. I will look up Bart Bellon and try to learn the appropriate way to use an ecollar. I did not use Faus, but rather Landheim. They did okay with teaching him obedience, but like I said, it did not curb the aggression (and his obedience was pretty solid to begin with!). I appreciate your help.
Your welcome. I don't use e collars personally. Most of the young dogs I have leave to other working homes, and I find e.collars are so mis used, that its best to have solid commands with praise and toy rewards. The problem dogs I yet in, an e.collar is not going to help, as it needs to be worked into slowly. Just as using any other training tool, the dog must have time to learn what the touch from a collar means, and how it correlates to training.
There is nothing wrong with correctly using e collars. Prong collars are safer than choke chains, but again I don't have a need for either here. I would rather have a dog that wants to work for rewards, than having to work for fear of corrections. I will correct a dog, when he does something completely uncalled for.. handler aggression, most dog aggression, and that's about it. Blowing me off in training, or doing opposite of what I ask, gets a time out to watch the other dogs tug and play, and not participating but having to watch the others is usually plenty to get a drivey dog working happily for you.
When your dog learns that showing aggression doesn't get him anywhere, but focusing on you and the best reward and big praise comes when he ignores that dog and focuses completely on you, will really get you somewhere.
That may start with being quite a distance, as soon as he eyes the other dog, "look", reward and praise. Over and over. Work up to being beside the other dog (with both leashed) work figure eights around him, eventually doing everything possible. This will create a solid "want to obey" rather than, "oh well ill take the zap this time".
There is nothing wrong with correctly using e collars. Prong collars are safer than choke chains, but again I don't have a need for either here. I would rather have a dog that wants to work for rewards, than having to work for fear of corrections. I will correct a dog, when he does something completely uncalled for.. handler aggression, most dog aggression, and that's about it. Blowing me off in training, or doing opposite of what I ask, gets a time out to watch the other dogs tug and play, and not participating but having to watch the others is usually plenty to get a drivey dog working happily for you.
When your dog learns that showing aggression doesn't get him anywhere, but focusing on you and the best reward and big praise comes when he ignores that dog and focuses completely on you, will really get you somewhere.
That may start with being quite a distance, as soon as he eyes the other dog, "look", reward and praise. Over and over. Work up to being beside the other dog (with both leashed) work figure eights around him, eventually doing everything possible. This will create a solid "want to obey" rather than, "oh well ill take the zap this time".
I can't help with any of your questions except to say neuter the bullmastiff. I could say more about e collars as I used them but it's not what you want to hear; you seem to think you can dictate who can post what. One poster gave you her observations but you came back with a smart aleck comment. I'm sure you're not here to make friends, which is probably good because you're not making any.
Well neutering a 5 yr old dog is not gonna stop anything as he's pretty much set in his ways.Many people have their own opinions on what is the most effective method of training. That was not the reason for this post and it has gotten WAY off topic; not one person on here has directly answered the question that was asked. I do not care who is in favor of prong collars, e-collars, positive training methods, etc. and I put that disclaimer out there in my initial post. I asked for help with the e-collar, which I still haven't gotten. Thanks anyway.
You have gotten much help with the e-collar, everybody has said don't use it. The odds of helping the problem are somewhere between slim and none.
im amazed every day to see the lack of knowledge when using training tools, but yet STILL insisting on using them.... if you dont know how to properly use it, and everyone is telling you not to, why the heck do you still think its the only "cure"? obviously, its not a cure... i feel for the dogs in this situation... being humped repeatedly until you need to defend yourself, being punctured repeatedly and still the dogs are put together again and again with the same results....
I second: Neutering the Bull Mastiff, crate and rotate in the meantime and for a short while after the Mastiff is neutered, then a slow positive reintroduction. I've heard/seen some people take the two dogs for really long walks/hikes/runs; close enough to be near each other to get used to the other's company...
Donatello is mildly aggressive towards non-neutered males. I say mildly as he'll just bark and growl with his hackles up, act intimidating for a minute while he's sizing the other up, and if he thinks he's gonna lose, he'll back off- all the while growling and barking.
Donatello is mildly aggressive towards non-neutered males. I say mildly as he'll just bark and growl with his hackles up, act intimidating for a minute while he's sizing the other up, and if he thinks he's gonna lose, he'll back off- all the while growling and barking.
deege39- what if he thinks he can win!? haha
@GreatDaneMom- lol! There have been a couple dogs smaller or slightly bigger than he, that he's bullied around and mounted. lol! But if it's anything bigger than a Beagle, he'll turn around and just talk smack from a picnic-table. 
Insults will not be tolerated here. Good luck at your next forum.Thank you for stating the obvious. Your advice is useless. In the meantime, darling, enjoy tooting your own horn on your stupid "accomplishments."
So . . . you are posting here because?I hate using these forums because many people (like you) just post to boast about how much they know about dogs. You aren't really trying to help people, just brag about what you [think] you know. If you were really trying to help, you'd ask more questions to clarify the issue.
It is astonishing the amount of people that come to just this forum alone and ask for advice, then get mad when they get it.
You're being advised on how to help your dog in a way that will benefit him, not just you. When you get that e-collar, put it around your neck and press the buzzer. Then, if you still feel it will help, put it on your dog. Maybe he'll be curled in the corner in no time, Lol.
You're being advised on how to help your dog in a way that will benefit him, not just you. When you get that e-collar, put it around your neck and press the buzzer. Then, if you still feel it will help, put it on your dog. Maybe he'll be curled in the corner in no time, Lol.
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