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The fox red and steel grey are genetic flukes and colors that shouldn't be encouraged. To get those colors you have to outcross to breeds of that color such as weimeraner, redbone coonhounds, chesses, rhodies etc. I currently have a 5 month old choc. lab here on a board and train and he is the product of a red mother and a chocolate father. he looks like a chocolate dane. His build is all wrong, his temperament is not labby at all but more dane or hound than anything... he is a nice dog but I see serious developmental problems down the road for this fella. He's likely going to be displastic as his hips are always popping, and not exactly the smartest rock in the box.

Overall I always suggest puppy buyers to never buy from breeders that are offering "fad" colors or something out of standard for the breed they're considering.
 

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The fox red and steel grey are genetic flukes and colors that shouldn't be encouraged.
They said the same thing about yellow labs when they first started appearing. It's a big pet peeve of mine when people bring in their Labs and Goldens to my work saying they are white or blonde when they're clearly yellow or gold. Fox Red and Silver labs are genetically possible, though I do agree that a buyer must be cautious of any one breeding them. At the rate these "rare" colors are being produced there's no way the majority of them are truly purebreds.
 

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The fox red and steel grey are genetic flukes and colors that shouldn't be encouraged.

People say that about chocolate labs, too. That to get that color they had to have been crossed with a nonlab.

I think the best way to buy any dog is from a breeder who does health testing and screens their breeders before any breeding takes place. Color doesn't matter if the hips are breaking down.
 

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fox red is not a non standard color, it is just a shade of yellow. The dogs are still genetically a yellow and the darker shade of yellow is actually the original color, it has been bred lighter over the years since it first showed up from a breeding between two blacks.

But any one avertising their dogs as "fox red" is not someone I would want to buy a dog from, color doesn't matter in a retriever and as such the breeder shouldn't care weather thier dogs are black yellow or chocolate as long as they pass their health tests and are great examples of the breed in structure, instinct, and temperament.
 

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Keechak said:
fox red is not a non standard color, it is just a shade of yellow. The dogs are still genetically a yellow and the darker shade of yellow is actually the original color, it has been bred lighter over the years since it first showed up from a breeding between two blacks.
Yep.
Here's the specific quote from the Lab standard, if anyone is interested -

Black--Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. Yellow--Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. Chocolate--Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/
 

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I have seen Labs in almost every shade from almost white to black. Some of the chocolates are very dark, and some leave you wondering where the line is between chocolate and yellow. That is where the fox reds fall.

Silver Labs are a different matter. Much of what I have read suggests they are actually Weimaraner crosses.
 

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Any time you have a different color come up in an established breed it has to generally be the result of an outcross to another breed. Sometimes you do get a genetic fluke of evolution but 98% of the time it is a direct result of outcrossing.
 

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Any time you have a different color come up in an established breed it has to generally be the result of an outcross to another breed. Sometimes you do get a genetic fluke of evolution but 98% of the time it is a direct result of outcrossing.
That's not the case here, though. As has been mentioned (wabana's link also talks about it) darker dogs were the original shade preferred in the breed. It's not something that simply cropped up later in history. Similarly, it's not a new color or different color...it's still genetically yellow.
 

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That is very interesting. I have always liked to learn about colour genetics.

On my local used board, there are several "strange" colours of dogs. There is a cream and white Dachshund. There are Miniature Schnauzers - says Mom is black and white - Dad is white!

Then there is another ad for Miniature Schnauzers "rare colours"

http://www.usedregina.com/classified-ad/11121436

This last ad says the puppies are registered.

Can someone tell me -- how you do get Schnauzer puppies that colour? According to the AKC breed standard, the colours are Salt and Pepper, Black and Silver and Black. I have never heard of a brown one or any of the other colours in that ad.

Are they genetic freaks? Are they crosses and the owners are lying about the parents in order to register the litter?????
 

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Cream is just diluted red, in dachshunds- it's always been around, but never popular.

White miniature schnauzers are somewhat more controversial. There are folks who insist they are mixed (with Westie), but I believe the color IS recognized in Germany, and it's possible some imports have been done. Liver ('chocolate') is actually present in MOST breeds that are normally black, in TINY numbers- bad breeders just capitalized on it and it became widespread quite quickly.

On the 'parti' schnauzers, I'm not sure. The black-and-silver pattern is just a variation on tan--point, but a lot of the partis look Irish spotted. I suspect there was SOMETHING brought in on those, but I'm not entirely sure. It's posible that by breeding dogs with white toes and chests together, that parti WAS lurking in the gene pool, but it's impossible to be sure.

Registered-wise, those guys are CKC. CKC will register ANYTHING, literally.
 

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That's not the case here, though. As has been mentioned (wabana's link also talks about it) darker dogs were the original shade preferred in the breed. It's not something that simply cropped up later in history. Similarly, it's not a new color or different color...it's still genetically yellow.
I was referring more so to that steel grey labs than the fox red. Seeing as how yellow would just be a dilute of the red then that is a color already in the gene pool.
 

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I've not heard of Labs in a color referred to as "steel gray," but I believe the "silver" Labs are valid...it's just a dilute of chocolate, is it not?
Depends on the genes. With weims they actually come in two colors, blue and silver. The general consensus for most breeds is that silver is a dilute of chocolate and blue is a dilute of black. However some breeds don't differentiate between the two and some breeds have different names for the same colors that you see in other breeds.
 

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I guess I am just old fashioned. I like the regular old style colours. When I was a teenager my parents bought a silver dapple Dachshund and that was rare in those days. People used to say "Oh what a shame she has gone grey so young!"
 
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