For Lab and Golden Retriever owners. Prospective new owner looking for help deciding

My first concern would be the number of dogs these people are breeding. While it's somewhat 'normal' for some breeders to work with 2 breeds, the 'few others' makes me question if they are a responsible breeder or a puppy mill/byb. By excellent pedigrees, do you mean the parents of the puppies have titles, or if you look at a five generation pedigree great great grandpa on mom's side got a title?

What you should look for first is health testing. For goldens, that's hips, elbows, eyes and heart, PRA would be a good one to inquire about since it's in some lines, and PU, early cancer and so on. Labs would be hips and eyes for sure but not sure what else should be tested for with BOTH parents.

Labs are more of the working type dog, goldens tend to be more goofy, but with training both can be great and what you're looking for, other than the loyalty thing. My golden is loyal to me till she sees someone else tossing the ball, then she could really care less if I was there or not. But she's not going to eat anyone that comes into the house or yard either. I find the boys I've had to be more loyal in that aspect but any dog will run off if not trained, they're dogs. You can go back and forth with the sex really with pros and cons. I prefer boys because they are a bit more loyal usually, but it's pretty even either way. If you're not set on one or the other, the breeder should be able to find the right pup for you.

In either case you can go on k9data.com and look up the dog's pedigrees, health testing and longevity and so on, if they're a reasonably good breeder, their dogs will be on there....

I could imagine a dog being loose unsupervised in many different circumstances, none of them intentional but they still happen....... A baseball comes through the back sliding class door of my first floor apartment when I'm not home for example..... Loose dog. I have chosen the lab in general because I like the breed. I have encountered quite a few and I know that I enjoy them, but I don't have enough interaction with them to know all the specific little things about the breed. I know that the retriever breed and specifically Labradors fit in with my life style of hunting both upland game bird and water fowl, running, exploring, etc.

As far as answering your question about why I have chosen them if they've got all those qualities that I don't want, if you'll go back to my original post, you'll see that I never attributed any of those traits specifically to the retriever breeds, those are the differences that I have heard about as far as Male VS Female in regards to dogs in general. My question is based on the fact that many of those negative traits seem to be descriptions of dogs within a particular class/size.(i.e. smaller dogs by nature have more attitude than bigger dogs). You stated that retrievers in general tend to love everyone, are wanderers and generally "goofy", so those are traits that you are attributing to the breed in general, but is there a difference between the males and females of the same breed? Labs being the breed and what are the differences if any?

Again as I said above, I know there are no stereotypes and training plays a big role but I also know that certain breeds have certain characteristics that make them react differently to different things. So in other words.... DO RETRIEVERS(or even more specifically LABRADORS) have any specific character traits that would make a female any more(or less) goofy than a male? Or a male any more(or less) loyal than a female? Or is the same true for them(retrievers/labs), that seems to be the consensus on the over all(meaning applies to all dogs in general) "male vs female" thread(s) on this site? That consensus being that males are usually(not always, but usually) described as I described them above and females are usually(.......) also described as above.

I ask this because again I have heard for instance that, IN GENERAL, female dogs(not specifying breed) are more loyal (and that is a quality that I like) but also tend to be prone to mood swings..... If I take her out in a field and I down my first pheasant or duck of the day, I don't want her to decide that she doesn't want to go get it. Or in the middle of a run, decide that she doesn't want to keep going. Or the same situations with a male, I don't want him deciding that he wants to just wander off while on a hunt or sees a good looking female and decide he wants to quit and try to go "get some". I know that I want a retriever no matter what and based on timing/availability with this breeder, I am fairly certain that a chocolate is what I will go with. Again, I know that training means a lot, but again I have also heard that, IN GENERAL, even though well trained, females(not specifying breed) can be openly defiant, because they just simply don't want to do what ever is being asked of them, where as a male is usually very eager to please and will do almost anything. Is that true of labs as well? As a breed, retrievers(especially labs) have a long history of being excellent for hunting. So, are male retrievers(labs specifically) any better or more suited for hunting than females?

I wouldn't take a 6 week puppy home, personally. I came close to getting a purebred lab a couple years ago, and the (very reputable) breeder I picked (English labs though, and they were really breeding for conformation rather than for field work) waited 8-9 weeks. They have their puppy picking party at 6 weeks, but the pups didn't go home until 8-9 weeks.

To answer your question...I think it's just generalizations. The breeder I picked had a strong opinion on the subject, saying that females are more independent and males are more dependent. Maybe that's true, but I've never met a lab that really seemed "independent" the way some other breeds can be. I ended up getting a rescue retriever mutt and she is certainly not independent. Biscuit says "play with me, all day! love me, all day!"

As far as field work goes ...it's what you do with the dog, not what kind of reproductive system they have. I don't think being gun shy, dog aggressive, storm-shy or what have you has anything whatsoever to do with gender. Pick the dog based on temperament.

Well, I guess that's not a problem for these peoples animals because I've not been able to find anything that would suggest what you all are talking about as far as biting and being properly socialized as puppies. My research also shows that time period to be closer to 6-8 weeks. And these people have been doing this for about 15 years. So, I'm not to worried about that. My main concerns are the things I've listed above, and not so much with biting and socializing. I personally think that the biting thing is something that can be handled through training, just as potty training can be. As far as socializing with other dogs, I do live in South Dakota, but I don't live in the middle of no where.... We do have cities, and there are plenty of other dogs around that my puppy will encounter on a regular basis.

**And they aren't even really concerns, I know that I won't regret getting the dog in any case, certainly not based on gender. I'm just looking for some input from people that have more experience with the specific breed so that I can have some kind of reference when it comes to the things listed in my original post so that I know what to expect, so that I know better how to approach it from the beginning rather than having to look for advice or explanations later, so that I can focus more of my attention on the dog when I actually have it, rather than spending my time doing this. I would seek these answers from the breeders themselves, but as you can see I tend to have plenty of questions on my mind and they have a family and another business to run. And I tend to want a more broad base of answers/opinions when I make a decision about pretty much anything.**

Echoing Carla - According to the out-of-date, but respected clinical research published by Scott and Fuller in the 1940s regarding developmental stages of puppies, 49 days (7 weeks) is the optimum point to begin more permanent socialization with people. They recommended adoption at that time. Today, with educated, experienced breeders who socialize the litter, 10 - 12 weeks is ideal, resulting in a calm, house-trained, intelligent companion. From my research, these dogs are more expensive in the beginning, but they turn out best, even when the owner is not knowledgeable about training.
(And, I'm jealous, b/c a friend of mine adopted a 12 week Lab pup, getting a "personality," that took me 6 mos of careful training to cultivate in my own pup.)

BTW, as Wvasko stated, with careful anticipation and training, you can guide the development of a dog. But he's been doing it for 50 years. My Lab-mix is well-trained, intelligent, and independent... which means he may not always be completely obedient ... Just as most people probably don't want to deal with a Lab puppy, I'm not sure how many people want to deal with an independent dog... at least Lab level (not Akita, Basenji, or terrier level !!! Compared to those dogs, I think owners would consider my dog to be velcro